9E attrition

[DoinTime]

You are correct on I don't get to dictate votes. But the No voters are not using good business logic like I explained in my previous post. Some one please explain on how a No vote is not an emotional vote. Many people not just pilots will lose there jobs and all the pilots will lose there jobs and all the money that's on the table. The No voters just don't want to hear that they are voting on pure emotion. These pilots I would bet are the same people that would fly a broken airplane on the last leg of a 4 day just to get home. They can't put there emotions in front of logic.

To me, the survival of Pinnacle or the conitinued employment of any of its workers is not relevant to my decision. I'm voting on what's best for the profession that I have decades left in. My vote is a resounding NO. A yes vote only proves that pilots hold no self worth and that management can win round after round of concessions just by putting a gun to their pilots' heads.

 

[Speedtape]

Delta will not be hiring for several years. United, USAIR/American, and a few other will be hiring by summer if not sooner.

 

[gojo]

Delta will not be hiring for several years. United, USAIR/American, and a few other will be hiring by summer if not sooner.

And how can you be so sure? If the merger between American and US airways happens they may not hire for a while either

 

[gojo]

To me, the survival of Pinnacle or the conitinued employment of any of its workers is not relevant to my decision. I'm voting on what's best for the profession that I have decades left in. My vote is a resounding NO. A yes vote only proves that pilots hold no self worth and that management can win round after round of concessions just by putting a gun to their pilots' heads.

I don't know if voting this TA down will save this profession. There is no unity. The only way to save this profession would be if everyone would take a stand together. Until then we are just one fish in the pond. Delta will find a way, and there will always be another Go Jets

 

[centralpilot]

I don't know if voting this TA down will save this profession. There is no unity. The only way to save this profession would be if everyone would take a stand together. Until then we are just one fish in the pond. Delta will find a way, and there will always be another Go Jets

Well, it has to start somewhere. GoJet is about to enter contract negotiations I believe. It'll be harder for them to raise the floor if 9E has matched them for 7+ years.

 

[mesaba13]

Lets let it start with you then. You guys expect us to raise the bar while you take Comairs flying and potentially ours.

 

[Clutch]

You shouldn't even mention yourselves in the same sentence as Comair..

 

[gojo]

You shouldn't even mention yourselves in the same sentence as Comair..

Do you ever say anthing of value on here?

 

[centralpilot]

Lets let it start with you then. You guys expect us to raise the bar while you take Comairs flying and potentially ours.

Our bar is about as high as it can go without some help. I don't expect you to raise it but I'd prefer it if you guys would not drop it to the floor for 7+ years voluntarily. If a judge enforces it at least there'll be a path back to reasonable pay. I'm not in your shoes but if I was willing to work for that pay I'd have gone to GoJet in the beginning and I'd be much further along in my career. If that TA comes to XJT you can be sure I'll vote no and change employer/career. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[mesaba13]

You would vote it down? The key word here is would, you are not in our situation. We have about 1200-1400 captains right now that all should vote this down on the verge a hiring cycle we have been waiting on for 10 years? Then we can start over and go to another regional or wait for a legacy while losing currency. You are telling our First Officers that will lose $5000 and furlough/health/pass benefits to vote it down to protect your regional jobs? Regionals are not careers, they are stepping stones that most of us have got stuck at because of circumstances starting with 911. You need to realize that with the demise of Comair you should not worry about others contract but about getting out of your regional before the gun is to your head. Don't you guys have around 100 RJs that also have a bulls eye on them?

If we vote this down and the 900's go to Gojets what will have been accomplished? Now there will be even more pressure on your wages. Our TA is still far superior to Gojets and Compass. Most 900 captains will still make $80000-$90000/year, get 3-4 weeks of vacation, have a min day of 4 hours, 11 days off min, junior man refusal rights, leg by leg protection, 50% 401K matching, affordable health care, etc. Most will get from $6000-$26000 as part of the bridge agreement which eases the pain some.

Gojets has 1-2 weeks of vacation, no rigs, min day, or cancellation pay. 10 days off for reserves, 1% 401k match. I don't even want to know what our decent $380/month family health care plan costs there. Wouldn't you rather have ASA comparing your next contract to our TA than Gojets? Delta has figured out what they are willing to pay for feed and they will get it at that number from us or someone else. There is going to be huge pressure on the regionals that is just starting and you either accept that and stay or you do what most of us are trying to do, which is get out.

 

[gojo]

You would vote it down? The key word here is would, you are not in our situation. We have about 1200-1400 captains right now that all should vote this down on the verge a hiring cycle we have been waiting on for 10 years? Then we can start over and go to another regional or wait for a legacy while losing currency. You are telling our First Officers that will lose $5000 and furlough/health/pass benefits to vote it down to protect your regional jobs? Regionals are not careers, they are stepping stones that most of us have got stuck at because of circumstances starting with 911. You need to realize that with the demise of Comair you should not worry about others contract but about getting out of your regional before the gun is to your head. Don't you guys have around 100 RJs that also have a bulls eye on them?

If we vote this down and the 900's go to Gojets what will have been accomplished? Now there will be even more pressure on your wages. Our TA is still far superior to Gojets and Compass. Most 900 captains will still make $80000-$90000/year, get 3-4 weeks of vacation, have a min day of 4 hours, 11 days off min, junior man refusal rights, leg by leg protection, 50% 401K matching, affordable health care, etc. Most will get from $6000-$26000 as part of the bridge agreement which eases the pain some.

Gojets has 1-2 weeks of vacation, no rigs, min day, or cancellation pay. 10 days off for reserves, 1% 401k match. I don't even want to know what our decent $380/month family health care plan costs there. Wouldn't you rather have ASA comparing your next contract to our TA than Gojets? Delta has figured out what they are willing to pay for feed and they will get it at that number from us or someone else. There is going to be huge pressure on the regionals that is just starting and you either accept that and stay or you do what most of us are trying to do, which is get out.

Good post

 

[Flyer1015]

I'm gonna borrow this post from another forum thread.

"
Then why did Delta offer a severance to Comair pilots to stay during a shutdown. Why did Delta offer a severance to Regional Elite employees to stay while there jobs were shifted to DGS or outsourced?

If you are a junior FO and looking at furlough either way, it is naive to think the only way you will get a severance package is to vote for this TA. This is why the guys with the MBAs outduel the guys with the FAA certificates.

I've seen plenty of shutdowns in my time in this industry. Severances are always offered to keep key people in in place until they aren't needed any more. That is why DL is offering severance in this TA, and will offer severance if the TA is rejected and the company is wound down. If you think they are offering the severance out of the graciousness of their hearts, then you don't know this NWA management team running Delta. They are a blackhearted bunch that care about one thing. The spreadsheets and profit/loss.

Either way Delta will need to take care of passengers and does not want a disruption in feed. Either way severance will be offered to keep pilots in place until they aren't needed any more."

 

[mesaba13]

Yes, but will severance packages be offered to the first to get furloughed or just the senior captains that are left when they actually shut down? I bet the first Comair guys to get furloughed got nothing.

 

[ifly34]

Comair and Regional Elite were owned by Delta. If the TA is voted down I doubt Delta will own us. Why would they pay severance to employees of a company they don't own?

 

[mesaba13]

Good point! Delta definitely will not own us if we wind down.

 

[MesabaDriver]

Vote YES if you want to continue to fly while you look for a new job and pay your bills. Vote NO if you want to be on unemployment while looking for a flying job. Ask the Comair and Midwest guys what its like trying to find a job in a competitive market when you haven't touched the controls in 6 months or more. Sure some people get lucky and catch on somewhere but not most. Your kidding yourself if you think your going to change the industry by voting NO. This industry is F&$@?d. We all take our turn getting hammered at the table. Mesaba 2006, Northwest 2006, Delta 2006, Alaska 2005, US Air every year and American recently. Take a look around. Do the best with what you have and 9e doesn't have much. If you don't like it go sit with the FAs and talk about going back to school or get your head on straight and make the best of a bad situation and use 9e for what it is... A place to build time, gain experience and possibly make some money till you find that next job your really deserve. Use that carrier like the use you.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Vote YES if you want to continue to fly while you look for a new job and pay your bills. Vote NO if you want to be on unemployment while looking for a flying job. Ask the Comair and Midwest guys what its like trying to find a job in a competitive market when you haven't touched the controls in 6 months or more. Sure some people get lucky and catch on somewhere but not most. Your kidding yourself if you think your going to change the industry by voting NO. This industry is F&$@?d. We all take our turn getting hammered at the table. Mesaba 2006, Northwest 2006, Delta 2006, Alaska 2005, US Air every year and American recently. Take a look around. Do the best with what you have and 9e doesn't have much. If you don't like it go sit with the FAs and talk about going back to school or get your head on straight and make the best of a bad situation and use 9e for what it is... A place to build time, gain experience and possibly make some money till you find that next job your really deserve. Use that carrier like the use you.

Please don't speak for us Comair folk. You really don't know what you're saying.

Additionally. Yes. Voting no IS a step towards changing the industry. If pilots keep saying "no, I refuse to okay the lowering of the bar", eventually, management(s) WILL get the message. Just don't expect overnight change.

 

[Indy319FA]

Comair and Regional Elite were owned by Delta. If the TA is voted down I doubt Delta will own us. Why would they pay severance to employees of a company they don't own?

You got a friend that has an MBA or runs a business? Ask them why. Delta paid severance to those employees because they needed their services, it had noting to do with owning them. Until I finished my MBA, and worked in flight ops at Pinnacle for a while, I never really understood this business. Its all about cost and profit/loss.

Bottom line pass or not, Delta will need somebody to fly those 200s until they are parked, and will have to give incentives to get it done. If they don't then performance will suffer because people will leave or won't give a crap about their job. The severance gives financial incentive to show up and give a crap. Not because they own you, or want to be fair, but because without it they will not be able to serve customers and will lose money.

 

[Indy319FA]

Yes, but will severance packages be offered to the first to get furloughed or just the senior captains that are left when they actually shut down? I bet the first Comair guys to get furloughed got nothing.

Everyone there got some severance. Why don't you look and see how much severance furloughs get after 2013? Only 150 are expected. Most furloughs will occur in 2014 and benefits will consist of one month pay plus one month insurance.

 

[Indy319FA]

Vote YES if you want to continue to fly while you look for a new job and pay your bills. Vote NO if you want to be on unemployment while looking for a flying job. Ask the Comair and Midwest guys what its like trying to find a job in a competitive market when you haven't touched the controls in 6 months or more. Sure some people get lucky and catch on somewhere but not most. Your kidding yourself if you think your going to change the industry by voting NO. This industry is F&$@?d. We all take our turn getting hammered at the table. Mesaba 2006, Northwest 2006, Delta 2006, Alaska 2005, US Air every year and American recently. Take a look around. Do the best with what you have and 9e doesn't have much. If you don't like it go sit with the FAs and talk about going back to school or get your head on straight and make the best of a bad situation and use 9e for what it is... A place to build time, gain experience and possibly make some money till you find that next job your really deserve. Use that carrier like the use you.

Gonna raise the BS flag on this one. Spoken like someone who hasn't been looking for a job lately. After leaving Colgan last March, I had 6 job offers in 4 weeks (4 CFI, 2 135) and took a teaching job as a CFI at a University that was close to home for a while that paid pretty well. Decided I was sick of CFIing in November, put resumes out, interviewed at several places in December, and I'm in a class next month. Lots of jobs out there that pay decent. May not be the big legacy job, but still plenty of jobs that will pay the bills and keep you flying till you find the job you want.