90 Seat RJs - Redefining the Profession

[surplus1]

The customer will define the market. Not the pilot. Keep jamming the rj down their throat and you will drive them away. They will gladly fly SWA or JB for the bigger A/C. People don't want to fly on "little" airplanes. They will pay more to ride a larger A/C. In the long run relying on an RJ that competes on a route with one offered by a mainliner, the customer will pick the bigger A/C every time. The only pax that like these jets are the ones in markets only sevred by them where they don't have a choice.

That's all very interesting and it probably supports your desires. However, it is also a contradiction of fact.

Passengers on regional jets often pay more than the do on narrow body jets.

The back end of a regional jet (the only end) is no different in comfort from the back end of a 737 or DC-9. It's actually better if you happen to be stuck in the middle row.

The on-board service is the same. Same peanuts, same booze, same free coke, etc.

Getting on and off the rj is much more convenient. So is baggage handling (unless you're carrying the kitchen sink).

Frequency of service is generally better. You go when you want to go, not when the airline wants to go.

The customer will NOT pick the bigger a/c every time. I know of many routes where RJs compete directly with SWA and do so successfully, inspite of higher ticket prices. When you charge $59 to go from A to B, you have to put a LOT of people on a 737 just to break even. At $20 more, a 50-seat RJ can operate at a profit with a 40% load factor.

The 73/DC-9 may take you there 2 or 3 times a day. The RJ will give you 6-7 options of schedule.

So there's no first class. There's no first class on SWA either. Most people don't buy 1st class tickets. Those seats are mostly filled by "upgrades" using free mileage and non-revs paying nothing.

Unless you have heavy loads to fill 75% of more of the mainline aircaft consistently, the airline loses money.

If what you say were true, the airlines would not be buying and operating ever increasing numbers of RJs. Unlike pilots, airline managers are interested in making PROFITS, not in paying higher salaries to airplane drivers operating empty aircraft

Whereever the big aircraft can be operated at a higher profit it will be used. When the profit isn't there, you see the RJ instead. This whole thing is not about what keeps pilots happy, it's about what makes more money.

 

[TurboS7]

Enough is enough, I guess I have to jump in. I fly commercially a lot, we call it the curse of the charter business. I have flown as a passenger the RJ's too much, and mainline birds too much also. In order to pass the time I usually try to strike up a conversation with a real customer(non-aviation type) and try to find out what they like and what they do not. Here is what I have found out...
1)safety and all that stuff is a given, the RJ is a great airplane and the crews are safe and well trained so lets just put all the pilot stuff aside and look at the customer.
2)the customer wants to go non-stop-no hubs
3)they love the RJ and once they get settled they would be happy to spend 3.0 hours in it vs. 20 minutes.
4)they would love to have a meal- the ONLY advantage of a mainline airplane-since that went away on 911 who cares now.
5)they love gate checking their carry-on's and picking them up at the gate-MAJOR CUSTOMER SATIFACTION DEAL PEOPLE LOVE THIS
6)ON TIME IS A MUST-people treasure their time they demand that the aircraft move on time.
7)People don't mind odd hours for travel if it results in few or no delays. Non-stop on the back side of the clock the aircraft would be full all the time.
8)People think the airlines are pretty dumb to use a 2000 mile range jet to go 300 miles-NO WONDER THEY ARE LOOSING MONEY -they comment.
9)Jet is a jet and they all fly the same, you just sit a little higher off the ground for some if you are flying a RJ enjoy the job.

 

[chawbein]

As one of the customers of the airlines and someone who is 6'4" tall, I would like to give my thoughts on RJ's. Big plane, little plane, they are all equally uncomfortable (for me). What are the most important aspects in flying commercially:

1. Schedule
2. On Time
3. Customer Service (I don't know why, but I think that SWA has the best customer service. I will NEVER fly NWA again, because their customer service is so poor.)

Regardless, I will look for the lowest price and non-stop flights. After those two criteria are met, then I look at the criteria mentioned above.

 

[57FLY'N]

My post was not intended to rally support for large A/C it was simply to state what influence the pax have on this toppic.

Timelyness, cust service, and safety are at the top of the list. If the RJ can fly the direct route from the small towns that the pax want then it clearly is the best choice. But unfortunately People from these areas do not want to go to the same place. The larger A/C comes into play when the leg is 1+ hours. I to have talked in great leangth with the flying public, both in uniform and out, and have found:

1. People want to go stait home.

2. Are dissapointed when they find out they are on any type of commuter. Unless it is there last leg home.

3. They do not want to be on an RJ for an extended period of time.

5. Have come to expect their flights to be cancelled or consolidated towards the end of the day when riding with regionals.

4. And of course, most stated the same facts as in other posts.

You can talk money all you want, but without considering the customer, you are ignoring the #1 reason for being there in the first place. First we took away their leg room now we are giving them that same leg room in an even smaller aircraft. What a deal. If we keep making it more unpleasant for them mayby they won't show up at all.

If you had the choice on a 3 hour drive and one friend is driving his suburban and the other is driving his brand new Yugo, the only difference is the suburban needs stop briefly and then continue. Which one would you pick? What if the suburban was non stop?

 

[surplus1]

My post was not intended to rally support for large A/C it was simply to state what influence the pax have on this toppic.

Speaking for myself, I did not make that assumption. What I did do was challenge some of your ideas. We agree completely that the passenger is #1 and will make the decision.

Timelyness, cust service, and safety are at the top of the list. If the RJ can fly the direct route from the small towns that the pax want then it clearly is the best choice. But unfortunately People from these areas do not want to go to the same place. The larger A/C comes into play when the leg is 1+ hours.

I happen to work for a regional and fly an RJ. I also ride in the back of airplanes, as a passenger, almost as much as I ride in the front office and seldom in uniform. Probably more on "big" airplanes than small ones. I don't know what "regionals" you ride on, but the one I work for and the ones I ride on don't fit your descriptions.

Timeliness: My airline has a much better on time record that its mainline partner. That record is better than most major airlines, consistently.

Customer Service: Our CSAs are as proficient as any I've encountered, friendlier than most to the paying passenger. baggage handling is better and more efficient and the percentage of bags we "lose" lower. In-flight cabin service is MUCH friendlier and intimate (without being "familiar"). We just don't have disgruntled flight attendants, many of whom on the majors are visibly unpleasant. What we offer for free, in the back, is no different than what I am offered on most of the majors, over the same stage length. The seat-pitch, in the back, is either the same or so close I can't tell the difference. I'm never sandwiched into a middle seat. The overhead bins are smaller, but it's easy to get my carry on loaded (in the back) and it's available now, when I deplane. I don't have to fight for bin space on board. There is plenty of room for those things I do carry-on. I don't get tv and video games, outdated movies, or sound tracks I don't like. Those things are available (and of my choice) via my laptop. I don't miss the onboard telephones. With high frequency, I have more choice of schedule in most cases.

My regionals of choice, fly to small towns and also fly to the large hubs (all that exist in my area of operation). I don't go to the West Coast very often so I don't know what happens out there.

Sometimes I have to connect and change planes on my regional. In most cases, I can change to a mainline aircraft or to another RJ at all the big hubs. In the smaller cities, the mainline aircraft are so scarse as to be impractical.

Safety: No different (as a matter of fact better records) on the regionals I use. I do admit however, there are some regionals on which I would not let my family ride. All regionals aren't the same, just like all large aircraft operators aren't the same.

Most sectors that I ride on (and operate) are between 1 - 2 hour duration, with an occasional 2.5. The block time is no different on the big aircraft and the total travel time is always shorter on the regional jet.

What I'm say is, my experiences don't seem to match yours.

There are some airlines with big airplanes on which I would never ride, even though it's free, unless I had to. I don't like the cattle car concept or the poor service. BTW, that doesn't include SWA, which although crowded, has always treated me "nice". Same with the regionals.

I to have talked in great leangth with the flying public, both in uniform and out, and have found:

1. People want to go stait home.

My regional lets you do that in most cases. No need to switch at hubs. Some flights (many actually) that do make a stop, let you continue with no change of aircraft and it doesn't takes us 2 hours to turn. If I do have a plane change, I can do it in the same terminal with minimum of hassle and continue on another RJ operated by the same airline. When I have to change to a big airplane, I have to ride a bus (like you do in IAD) or the train/shuttle same as the major airline.

2. Are dissapointed when they find out they are on any type of commuter. Unless it is there last leg home.

Most passengers don't have a clue, unless of course you choose to tell them. The one's that say "it's so small" can almost always be identified as first-time or very infrequent flyers. What I call the "bus" set. By the time the flight is over they have a change of heart more often than not, thanks to the great FAs'

3. They do not want to be on an RJ for an extended period of time.

Again, if you don't empnasize it a majority don't know. Those who do know, usually like the airplane and chose it on purpose for the good schedule, good service and on-time performance you mentioned.

4. Have come to expect their flights to be cancelled or consolidated towards the end of the day when riding with regionals.

Huh? I don't know which regionals you ride on, but my airline NEVER cancels or consolidates flights due to passenger load, regardless of the "time of day". We operate our schedule and the cancellation causes are no different from those at a major airline.

Again, I'm lost as to which regionals you ride on, 'cause what you describe is foreign to me. Yes, I've had "bad service" on a regional, but frankly it has been less frequent than on a major. Some personell at the majors (CSA's and FAs) seem to think they're doing you a "favor".

I know my treatment as a non-rev isn't the same as full fare (in some cases), but I'm not wearing blinders and I know who the paying customers are. We stand in the same lines, sit next to each other and since I travel in civvies, they don't know I'm a non-rev and I don't tell.

I agree with you 100% that the customer is and should be King. That is how we treat our customers and it's on a par if not better than most majors I've ridden on. We go out of our way to make it "pleasant" and they keep coming back by the millions. They do have other options, so there must be a reason.

Since we don't have but a couple 3-hours plus segments, your analogy with the SUV doesn't seem to apply.

I wonder why our experiences appear to be so different?

 

[FlyingSig]

Timeliness: My airline has a much better on time record that its mainline partner. That record is better than most major airlines, consistently.

Does Comair have ACARS or do you call out your own times? That really makes a big differance. Ask SWA

Customer Service: Our CSAs are as proficient as any I've encountered, friendlier than most to the paying passenger. baggage handling is better and more efficient and the percentage of bags we "lose" lower. In-flight cabin service is MUCH friendlier and intimate (without being "familiar"). We just don't have disgruntled flight attendants, many of whom on the majors are visibly unpleasant.

Agreed. Comair in MCO does a great job. Comair handles Delta in MHT and they are extremly friendly and knowlegeable. I enjoy flying in there. All the other outstations I've flown to on Comair, were staffed by Delta mainline ACS agents and not Comair agents though. The "younger" in-flight staff goes a long way to being able to keep smiling vs. the 95 year old FA's that have been working since they dated the Wright brothers.

But this really depends on the airline. Gilligan's island in DFW and Concorse C in ATL is not a plesant expericance for non-revs and the way I've seen paying passengers treated by CSA's is pretty embarrasing. Not knocking the flight crews there...just the gate agents.

4. Have come to expect their flights to be cancelled or consolidated towards the end of the day when riding with regionals

Never found this to be a problem on CMR out of CVG. Not since the Metro's went away in MCO either... however I have found reliability to be an issue in DFW on all three DCI carriers that fly out of there. Again, not the flight crews fault and just my observations (I usually flew on CAL or AA for this reason and after 9/11 I found myself driving between Houston-Dallas more than half of my trips)

 

[surplus1]

Does Comair have ACARS or do you call out your own times? That really makes a big differance. Ask SWA.

No, we're not using ACARS. Our pay system does not lend it self to padding. There is no need. Most of us would prefer to maintain our reputation than the few cents you migh occasionally pick up. It's a pride thing, seldom understood in today's world. Part of our "culture", which is very much our own.

Agreed. Comair in MCO does a great job. Comair handles Delta in MHT and they are extremly friendly and knowlegeable. I enjoy flying in there. All the other outstations I've flown to on Comair, were staffed by Delta mainline ACS agents and not Comair agents though. The "younger" in-flight staff goes a long way to being able to keep smiling vs. the 95 year old FA's that have been working since they dated the Wright brothers.

I'll be the first to admit that things do change where we are not handled by our own people. Obviously, I was making reference to our own staff, not the subcontractors.

But this really depends on the airline. Gilligan's island in DFW and Concorse C in ATL is not a plesant expericance for non-revs and the way I've seen paying passengers treated by CSA's is pretty embarrasing. Not knocking the flight crews there...just the gate agents.

I don't know too much about the "island" (which we don't operate) and I'll have to agree that I've often shared the pain of Concourse C in ATL (which we also do not operate). Now that we're doing some ATL runs, it's a cause of constant concern (at C & D) in maintaining our accustomed level of service/reliability. I didn't want to point fingers at other carriers.

Never found this to be a problem on CMR out of CVG. Not since the Metro's went away in MCO either... however I have found reliability to be an issue in DFW on all three DCI carriers that fly out of there. Again, not the flight crews fault and just my observations (I usually flew on CAL or AA for this reason and after 9/11 I found myself driving between Houston-Dallas more than half of my trips)

The Metro has difficulty qualifying as an airplane. They are long gone, but they still didn't cancel for loads. They canceled for mechanicals. If you look at the trip numbers between IAH and DFW you'll find we don't fly that route. We have 1 daily RT CVG-DFW; 3- DFW-CRP and 1 DFW-SAT. If you've had trouble on those let me know. I know there's this DCI thing, but the truth is we still haven't been "assimilated" (thank goodness). Please don't lump us into that barrel. We've been bought, but we still have our identity which I know, regretably, may eventually die. We can't be responsible for other "brands" or their people. Like I said in the other post, "all regionals are not the same".

PS. Hoping you'll soon be back.

 

[publisher]

since Comair strike

Comair was a wake up to the majors that they could be held hostage by their feeders. Since that moment, they have been distancing themselves. It has been apparent to me at every turn and confirmed with the Regional Airline Association meeting in Nashville.

It is certainly in the realm of possibility that there will be no wholly owned regional by the end of the next three years. Scope is certainly no answer. As point to point flying in smaller jets by passes hubs, every regional will need to be competitive with their counterparts and the totally independents.

From where I sit, most of the argument, not all, that is on this subject has already been decided. It was reflected in the tough line that Delta took with Comair, with the stance that American took with the APA, with the spin off of Pinnacle and COEX. With the success of Southwest, Alaska, JetBlue, Air Tran.

 

[surplus1]

Re: since Comair strike

Comair was a wake up to the majors that they could be held hostage by their feeders. Since that moment, they have been distancing themselves. It has been apparent to me at every turn and confirmed with the Regional Airline Association meeting in Nashville.

I've been trying to guesstimate where you're going with RAA spin and haven't quite been able to pin you down. Your posts are clever.

There's a story behind the story of the Comair strike that you or the RAA or both may not have grasped.

First, negotiations were in progress for more than two years before Delta bought Comair. Second, the needs of Comair pilots (at the bargaining table) did not change as a result of the Delta purchase. Third, had it not been for the Delta purchase the outcome of the strike would have been quite different.

If the majors do spin off the regionals like Comair in the future, the RAA may get more than it seems to be counting on, if I'm reading correctly between your lines.

It is certainly in the realm of possibility that there will be no wholly owned regional by the end of the next three years. Scope is certainly no answer. As point to point flying in smaller jets by passes hubs, every regional will need to be competitive with their counterparts and the totally independents.

That sounds like you think the RAA believes that if regionals are spun off, they can more readily be played against each other for even lower wages and benefits. If that's the idea, they may bite off more than they can chew.

From where I sit, most of the argument, not all, that is on this subject has already been decided. It was reflected in the tough line that Delta took with Comair, with the stance that American took with the APA, with the spin off of Pinnacle and COEX. With the success of Southwest, Alaska, JetBlue, Air Tran.

There is no regional in the business that could have sustained the $680 million dollar 90-day "tough stance" that Delta did. Had the strike been against Comair instead of Delta, some think there would be no Comair, others think the strike would have been settled much earlier with the pilots achieving most of their goals.

If all the big regionals are spun off, they will soon find that joining together is the only way they can survive in a free market. They won't be competing with each other for the crumbs. They'll consolidate and control their end of the market. You could wind up with the tail wagging the dogs.

What do you think a merger of Eagle, Coex, Comair, ASA, SkyWest, AirWisconsin, Horizon and Atlantic Coast would look like? Perhaps that's far fetched, but perhaps its not. How do you think the pilots of such an entity would fare at the bargaining table?

Will the RAA be able to keep regional pilots from uniting with each other if they are no longer burdened with the yoke of their mainline masters?

It might turn out to be the best thing that could happen to regional pilots. Somehow I don't think it would take them too long to figure out how not to be the "lowest bidder".

Careful what you ask for. You might get it.

 

[may]

Huh? I don't know which regionals you ride on, but my airline NEVER cancels or consolidates flights due to passenger load, regardless of the "time of day". We operate our schedule and the cancellation causes are no different from those at a major airline.

BULL ----- **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**,

Your service has caused me more grief in the past than 3 screeming two year olds. I have to voice out now that you have crossed the line. I tried to read all your posts on recent issues with an open mind, and do firmly believe that you do have the blinders on. FDJ and Clownpilot have my vote. You accuse them of not seeing the other side but with your statements in the post in which I have quoted, you clearly are Hard headed one sided and all in it for yourself. If you are married than I would guess you have been divorced. If not, then I guess you have never been maried. If you are married and never been divorced then I'll bet your wife is affraid to divorce you. You show no signs of compromise and want it your way. I think BK is still hiring, and I don't mean their flight dept. You can fool yourself into thinking the RJ is for everybody, but until you create your own airline of them you will always be the step child. You are right in one thing you do probably get treated differently as a nonrev, because you certainly don't see the missery of the paying public.