8410

[jumppilot03]

I interviewed for a job as a 135 SIC today. The interviewer stated that the candidate who gets the job will be given a 135 SIC checkride and get an 8410. I am curious as to if an 8410 is airplane specific (ie King Air) or if it is transferable between other aircraft. Thanks Jumppilot03

For those of you that are curious, yes it is a paid position.

 

[350DRIVER]

I think he may have meant you will get the FT105 form which lists all that you have done on the checkride including your oral and results, atleast that is how it is done with regards to our SIC's in the King Air fleet at our company.

All of our SIC's are given the required ground school, tests, flight training (usually 2-5 hours depending on applicant), checkride (135.293), an observation flight, then differences training since we operate numerous different types of aircraft then you should be good to go-

sure this varies company to company... Just keep in mind that the entire King Air fleet is type certificated to be operated "single pilot" so the only way you would be able to "log SIC time" would be "if" your ops specs require you to be there- insurance company requirements cannot over ride FARS or the ops specs.- Some people tend to buy into the theory that since they have that "magic" form that states they are 135 qualified as a SIC then they can then "log sic time" automatically- not true...> make sure the ops specs are very clear on this since the way you log this time may be "questioned" at some interview down the road.

c h e e r s
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congrats on the job

 

[350DRIVER]

oops as for your "specific" question- "yes" the ride is specific to the airplane that you will be flying and the make and model is noted on the top of the FT105 form.

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[Thedude]

I was in the 135 biz for years and I have never heard of a FT-105. When you take any kind of check ride a 8410 is issude and it is not aircraft specfic unless a type rating is involved. Ie.. a 135 ride PIC ride is good for a cat and class machines as long as you have been previosly trained on them with that company. Example, I was given a 135 PIC ride for a King Air 100, which is also good for the 200 provided I had differences training and also good for the Commander, provided I had been to gnd school on it.

 

[FlyingSig]

I'm new to the whole 135 thing, but I just did a fed ride and it was called a 299 ride... I also did an oral with the fed which covered the part of the 293 that flight safety didn't cover... and the flight safety ride was a 297 ride.

Maybe it's my public school math, but isn't it easier just to call it a checkride and a line check? I dunno... But I don't remember anything about a 8410 so maybe I did it or maybe I didn't, got me.

 

[wingnutt]

I am curious as to if an 8410 is airplane specific (ie King Air) or if it is transferable between other aircraft.

yes, but only between same types. although i belive an annotation must be made on the 8410 that you did indeed have the differential training that dude mentioned.

but to jump between say, a 402 and a baron, no. another ride is required for that.

now then, for your 6 month check, any aircraft on their line, that you hold a current 8410 in, is acceptable.

clear as mud, eh?

as for the SIC stuff, i havent a clue...not yet seen/heard of a 105.

 

[jumppilot03]

Sorry for the ambiguity in the post, but Wignutt dug through the post and found the question to answer. As for an FT105 I have never heard of one. What is it? If it makes any difference its in house training and checkride. Thanks for the help

 

[Rick1128]

Maybe I can clear it up a little bit. An 8410 refers to the form number that the FAA uses. It is form 8410-3. It gets its number from the fact that it is in the 'Air Carrier Inspector's Handbook' whic is numbered 8400.10. The 293, 297 and 299 rides that are referred to comes from FAR 135. Regs 135.293, 135.297 and 135.299.

A King Air ride is only good in a King Air, so it is type specific. However, there are families of aircraft that only require a differences oral and/or training to add additional aircraft. A King Air 90 checkride with differences can add KA100 and KA200. I am not sure about the KA300 and KA350, because the certification of the aircraft is different.

If the aircraft is outside the family, it doesn't apply. So in your case to add a Cheyenne 3, you need another checkride.

The FT105, might refer to a company form number. The FAA does allow companies to use their own forms. But the FAA must accept them first.

As for logging SIC time under 135, according to FAA legal, if the company assigns you to the trip, even if the aircraft and pilot are single pilot qualified, you can log the time.

 

[350DRIVER]

As for an FT105 I have never heard of one. What is it?

I have not had the time to really dig into this however it is the form that both the first officers get as well as the captains once they do their flight checks. The original stays in your 135 company file- possibly this is a company specific form- dunno for sure...

The top states, our company name then Compentency/ Proficiency Flight Check (FT105)

then..> Name of applicant, date, flight time, location, type of check whether it be 135.293, 135.297, 135.299, whether it is the PIC or SIC check...

after that>
Name of check Airman, then his signature

Observing FAA Inspector then comes after that (if applicable)

Results of Airman's Flight Check:
Result of observation: Then everything that is done is listed in different sections under 7 topics.

1) Preflight:
exam (oral or written)
preflight inspection
taxing
power utilization


2) General
Judgement
crew coordination
checklist utilization
cockpit management


3) Emergencies
abnormal procedures
emergency procedures
other (specify)

4) Takeoffs
normal
Instrument (lower than std)
crosswind
rejected takeoff
Engine failure (simulated)
area departure


5) Inflight Manuevers
steep turns
approach to stalls
unusual attitudes
engine failure (simulated)
emergency decent
specific flight characteristics


6) Landings
normal
from an ILS
engine(s) out (simulated)
rejected landing
no flap approach
crosswind


7) Instrument Procedures
area arrival
use of autopilot
ILS approach
NDB/ADF approach
other- (if applicable)
holding procedures and holding
missed approaches
ILS approach (F/D 100' DH)
VOR approach
Comm/nav procedures
circling approaches
ILS approach (sim. single engine)
LOC approach

this is all that is on the middle of the form- S or P is equivalent to sat or pass. U or F is equivalent to Unsat. or Fail.

then after that when this check ride expires is typed in.

last thing is "remarks" section at the bottom right- this "FT105" may be company specific although I would highly doubt it- I will look into this though


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[wingnutt]

As for logging SIC time under 135, according to FAA legal, if the company assigns you to the trip, even if the aircraft and pilot are single pilot qualified, you can log the time.

not arguing, just curious...

is that the loophole that allows SIC time? can you or anyone point it out in written form? ive always wondered this as ive seen more than one company assigning SIC's to aircraft that we all know dont require it according to op specs.

sign me,
curious george

 

[350DRIVER]

wingnutt,

I have looked into this inside and out and I believe the only way that is "correct"with regards to "legally" being able to log the time as SIC is (IF) it is stated in the company's ops specs. (my opinion as well as inspectors from numerous fsdo's) I do not think that just being "assigned" that duty of SIC by the company and getting paid for it is enough to legally be able to justify logging the time as sic in any aircraft that is type certificated for single pilot operations. Although you speak to 10 different FSDO inspectors and you get ten completely different answers. A senior inspector at the TPA fsdo Buzz (can't remember his last name) said that you should log it as SIC since you are "qualified" as a 135 SIC so what gives.??

Is this correct.? I can come up with many FAR's and quotes that would shoot this down although I could find just as many "loop holes" that could prove you could log it as SIC. I have yet to meet one person within any fsdo who could "clearly" answer this and put every doubt in my mind to rest with regards to this topic.

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[Rick1128]

350,

If your company name is at the top of the form FT150, then it is a company specific form. It has to be accepted by the FAA and contain at least all the required items of Form 8410-3. The company may add other items and remove unnecessary items. But it is specific to your company.

You are correct that each inspector will have their own opinion. But a written opinion from FAA Legal is what carries the weight. There has been several 'Letters of Interpretation' issued on this subject. And they all say basicly the same thing. Even if the aircraft and pilot are single pilot qualified under 135, if the company assigns a copilot, then it is a two pilot aircraft for that trip. And the copilot may log the time.

 

[varicam]

not arguing, just curious...

is that the loophole that allows SIC time? can you or anyone point it out in written form? ive always wondered this as ive seen more than one company assigning SIC's to aircraft that we all know dont require it according to op specs.

sign me,
curious george

Loophole? Op specs don't require a SIC, the regulations do. FAR 135.101 requires an SIC for carrying passengers in IFR conditions regardless of type airplane. FAR 135.105 permits the substitution of an autopilot for a SIC in certain circumstances. However, an autopilot authorization is permissive, not required. A company may or may not use it on a particular flight at their discretion. There's a lot of hogwash being circulated to the effect that a SIC can only be used on a small Part 135 airplane when it's autopilot is inoperative. The FAA recognizes that substituting an autopilot for a SIC does not result in an equivilant level of safety, and would much prefer that SICs be on all IFR passenger flights. Passenger safety certainly is enhanced by using a properly trained and tested SIC rather than relying on an autopilot. An autopilot is not too good at calling out minimums or reviewing missed approach procedures. Likewise, most autopilots aren't too good at handling radios and taking over in the event of incapitization of the human pilot. But, the FAA also recognizes that requiring SICs on small airplanes would be too great an economic penalty in most cases. Hence, the op spec autopilot authorization, which is recognized as being an imperfect compromise.

 

[cocknbull]

I have a current 8410 for SIC in a PA31 which does not require two crew for certification. However we have an SIC training program writen into our OP SPECS. If we do not take an SIC on our flights we have greater mins. With an SIC we can take off with 600, 600, and 600 provided we have a takeoff alternate. Without an SIC we have to have the mins for the approach to take off. In order to get the lower mins an SIC is know a required crew member and as such you may log the time as SIC. I

 

[wingnutt]

...an SIC for carrying passengers.

while i understand the use of SIC in pax carrying ops...i dont think this is/was the point of contention.

the use of an SIC in non-passenger carrying situations (whether the SIC is paying, or being paid) in an aircraft that is certified single pilot (lets use a 402 for example) wherein the "SIC" does indeed log "SIC" time is the question of the day. i see various operations doing this on a day-to-day basis with nary a word from the nearest FAA guru.

...herein lies the loophole i am referring to.