737 missing over Brazil

[StaticWick]

I am in big discussion here with a pilot...so TCAS does not receive it's information from ground radar or does it?

Also Con Pilot, don't fool yourself. If these two aluminum airplanes hit, doing a closure speed of around 800 tas (one is doing 400 kts + the speed of the other) It wouldn't take much to structurally damage a wing so that cannot support weight.

 

[NuGuy]

I am in big discussion here with a pilot...so TCAS does not receive it's information from ground radar or does it?

Also Con Pilot, don't fool yourself. If these two aluminum airplanes hit, doing a closure speed of around 800 tas (one is doing 400 kts + the speed of the other) It wouldn't take much to structurally damage a wing so that cannot support weight.

No, TCAS doesn't require any ground station at all. In crowded areas, it may let the secondary radar (the part of a radar site that interrogates transponders) interrogate the other transponders (wisper mode), and it will process replies that those transponders send in response to the ground station. It does this so as to not saturate the area with interrogation signals.

However, if there is little or no ground based secondary radar operating, TCAS will go into the "shout" mode, and actively interrogate transponders itself.

Nu

 

[con-pilot]

Also Con Pilot, don't fool yourself. If these two aluminum airplanes hit, doing a closure speed of around 800 tas (one is doing 400 kts + the speed of the other) It wouldn't take much to structurally damage a wing so that cannot support weight.

There was no intent to minimize the possible damage resulting from the mid-air collision of these two aircraft. That the two aircraft collided I believe there is no doubt. Two undamaged aircraft took off, were operating in the same general airspace, one damaged aircraft landed and the other crashed out of control into the jungle.

As I have attended and completed Phase I and II of the NTSB Accident Investigator School I am very cognizant of the fact that the failure of an extremely small part can cause a accident of disastrous consequence when compared to the size of the aforementioned minor/small part.

After viewing the pictures of the Legacy with the minor damage of the missing wing-let, consisting of mostly fiberglass with a metal reinforced leading edge and the minor damage to the left outboard section T-tail consisting of a few mm of missing structure I was left with a quandary concerning the loss of a much larger, just as well built, if not better build airliner after what appears to be a very minor collision with a smaller aircraft. The closure speed or angle of impact of this accident is unknown at the present time, at least to my knowledge. If you have such information available I would greatly appreciate you sharing this information with us.

A case in point is the loss of the PSA Boeing 727 after colliding with a Cessna 172 in California many years ago. And as I am sure you are aware of there have been other collisions involving smalled piston engine light aircraft with much larger aircraft resulting the total loss of both aircraft. However, in the PSA accident and other similar type accidents the smaller aircraft was totally destroyed by the impact of the mid-air collision. In this incident the smaller aircraft landed with very little relative damage.

The fact that the two aircraft collided there is no doubt. Someone was in the wrong airspace at the wrong time, this is not in dispute. The smaller of the two aircraft landed safely with minimal damage and the larger new (less than 200 hours) Boeing 737-800 crashed out of control into the jungle is the tragic result of the first two facts.

That the airliner involved was a new Boeing 737-800, I am sure that the new style flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder was installed. The fact that the Embraer Legacy was a brand new aircraft should indicate that the same recorders were on that aircraft as well.

It is very possible that the Legacy collided with the 737 is such a way that the vertical stab and rudder were lost due to the collision, resulting in
the loss of control of the 737.

It is also very possible that the crew of the 737 lost control of the aircraft trying (unsuccessfully) to aviod the collision with the Legacy and were unable to recover.

In summary there are three key questions that need, and I feel will be, answered.

1. Who was in the wrong airspace and why?

2. Was the impact damamge to the Boeing 737 so sever that the aircraft became unairworthy after the mid-air.

3. If the collision dammage was not sufficent to cause the loss of control of the Boeing 737, what did cause the loss of control?

Only time will tell and don't believe anything from the media.

 

[satpak77]

good post con-pilot

also, some observations

in this link, allegedly the gear of the GOL 737

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j193/joaovitor/gear.jpg

It appears the gear is out of the well, and extended. If this is part of the 737 emerg descent checklist (put gear down), then I wonder if they were trying to accomplish that checklist?

Also, I wonder if the wingtip of the Legacy hit the 737 in the cockpit or nose area, resulting in explosive decompression.

One more, I see no obvious signs of fire in the crash site. Were the wings/engines attached to the plane when it hit the ground?

 

[ackattacker]

I read it in article last night that the pilot was interviewed and he stated that he turned off his transponder and climbed to a higher level to gain fuel efficiency without letting ATC know.

....................

The information above seems to support very well what the pilot claimed. If it was the pilot's fault, how much trouble could he be in?

I hesitate to chime in without waiting for the results of a full investigation. We all know how often the media gets it wrong. BUT if this is correct then it is likely he would be prosecuted for 155 counts of negligent homicide. Again I hate to speculate but for two TCAS equiped aircraft to collide is improbable unless one has an inoperative or "OFF" transponder.

 

[con-pilot]

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4523/738collisionxj9.jpg

I got this from another site. One needs to place the Legacy on the other side of the 737.

Just one of many possible impact angles, but this one does make sense.

I hadn't seen that picture yet satpak77, thank you.

 

[satpak77]

I hesitate to chime in without waiting for the results of a full investigation. We all know how often the media gets it wrong. BUT if this is correct then it is likely he would be prosecuted for 155 counts of negligent homicide. Again I hate to speculate but for two TCAS equiped aircraft to collide is improbable unless one has an inoperative or "OFF" transponder.

I hear you. But who knows, maybe the TCAS on one or both airplanes had some sort of "software issues" which only exist at XXX bank angle or configuration, etc etc

As an aside, I have painted zero weather at night with the radar only to fly into a pretty nasty rain shower shortly thereafter. "What is that noise" (rain on the windscreen) was the first thing asked in the cockpit.

So who knows...

 

[StaticWick]

There was no intent to minimize the possible damage resulting from the mid-air collision of these two aircraft. That the two aircraft collided I believe there is no doubt. Two undamaged aircraft took off, were operating in the same general airspace, one damaged aircraft landed and the other crashed out of control into the jungle.

As I have attended and completed Phase I and II of the NTSB Accident Investigator School I am very cognizant of the fact that the failure of an extremely small part can cause a accident of disastrous consequence when compared to the size of the aforementioned minor/small part.

After viewing the pictures of the Legacy with the minor damage of the missing wing-let, consisting of mostly fiberglass with a metal reinforced leading edge and the minor damage to the left outboard section T-tail consisting of a few mm of missing structure I was left with a quandary concerning the loss of a much larger, just as well built, if not better build airliner after what appears to be a very minor collision with a smaller aircraft. The closure speed or angle of impact of this accident is unknown at the present time, at least to my knowledge. If you have such information available I would greatly appreciate you sharing this information with us.

A case in point is the loss of the PSA Boeing 727 after colliding with a Cessna 172 in California many years ago. And as I am sure you are aware of there have been other collisions involving smalled piston engine light aircraft with much larger aircraft resulting the total loss of both aircraft. However, in the PSA accident and other similar type accidents the smaller aircraft was totally destroyed by the impact of the mid-air collision. In this incident the smaller aircraft landed with very little relative damage.

The fact that the two aircraft collided there is no doubt. Someone was in the wrong airspace at the wrong time, this is not in dispute. The smaller of the two aircraft landed safely with minimal damage and the larger new (less than 200 hours) Boeing 737-800 crashed out of control into the jungle is the tragic result of the first two facts.

That the airliner involved was a new Boeing 737-800, I am sure that the new style flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder was installed. The fact that the Embraer Legacy was a brand new aircraft should indicate that the same recorders were on that aircraft as well.

It is very possible that the Legacy collided with the 737 is such a way that the vertical stab and rudder were lost due to the collision, resulting in
the loss of control of the 737.

It is also very possible that the crew of the 737 lost control of the aircraft trying (unsuccessfully) to aviod the collision with the Legacy and were unable to recover.

In summary there are three key questions that need, and I feel will be, answered.

1. Who was in the wrong airspace and why?

2. Was the impact damamge to the Boeing 737 so sever that the aircraft became unairworthy after the mid-air.

3. If the collision dammage was not sufficent to cause the loss of control of the Boeing 737, what did cause the loss of control?

Only time will tell and don't believe anything from the media.

I wish you would of said that the first time. Excuse me while I go remove your foot, normally I could do it myself but because it's way up there, I'll need some help removing it.:erm:

SW

ps. I know first hand not to listen to the media and I'll be the first to tell you not to listen to what the FAA preliminary findings report shows either. NTSB final report is usually the best and least slanted.

 

[Publishers]

Good post Con-pilot. Obviously at cruise speed high altitude, it is the where not that one hit. The worse I suppose would be loss of tail area controls surfaces. The pictures I saw looked like the aircraft is in the trees inverted with no post flight fire. Gear may have been extended along with slats. This could have been done in an attempt to slow the decent.
We do not have much information as we can speculate about the TCAS but if this was at night high altitude, you would thing that they would see each other coming. Do not know the flight plans, assigned altitudes, or any of the other pertinent information.
I immdiately thought about the Hawker versus Glider and the damage done to the Hawker by a glider. Still the aircraft flew.

 

[con-pilot]

I wish you would of said that the first time.

Yeah sorry about that, but the first post with the links I was in a hurry. The second post I had a glass of Scotch in hand and time to do a little research and do a proper post.:0

Still a very tragic affair for all involved.


(I never intended to infer that no mid-air took place, my bad.)