737 Captain Pay Comparison

ironwedge

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Cool new chart over at Airline Pilot Central: it's an hourly pay rate comparison for 737 captians for North American airlines.

Who would have thought that Kitty Hawk pilots would be near the top of the list (no offense, just didn't expect that). Also, even with the beating that Alaska pilot's took in arbitration, they are still "more than 10%" above the industry average.

It's an interesting chart, I hope APC will make it a regular feature on their site.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/132/56/
 

mach none

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How did you get that info? I cannot find a link on the website that provides that info.
 

ironwedge

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falcon20driver said:
Kitty Hawk's monthly guarantee is only 43 hours, not near the top of guarantee salary.

I'll go back and look, but I think it was an hourly wage comparison - not a monthly guarantee comparison.
 

Vref+10

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Kitty Hawk pilots only get paid 43 hours per month, so go ahead and cut those pay rates in half.
 

ironwedge

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Vref+10 said:
Kitty Hawk pilots only get paid 43 hours per month, so go ahead and cut those pay rates in half.

I must be missing something.

Isn't that chart an hourly wage comparison? I don't see anything about monthly guarantee, do you?

Are Kitty Hawk pilots only paid 43 hours per month with some kind of pay cap?

They do have a low guarantee, but how does that affect hourly rates?
 

UALjan15

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I think what he is saying is that you can have the highest hourly pay on the chart, but if you're only flying 43 hours/month, your paycheck is going to suck. In other words, don't fixate on the hourly rate. It isn't the whole picture.
 

Snoopy58

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In other words, don't fixate on the hourly rate. It isn't the whole picture.

Truer words were never spoken!

Pay rate is one part of the picture, but it isn't the whole thing, not by a long shot. Pay RATE doesn't feed the family, doesn't help you qualify for a home loan, doesn't pay for kids' college, etc etc. Along with hourly rate, a more complete picture would look something like this:

For each airline, if you were hired in ___, the 25th% got paid $XXXk and worked yyy days last year, and the 75th percentile got $ZZZk and qqq days:

1975 $xxx for yyy days, $zzz for qqq days
1976 etc
...
2004 etc
2005 etc

W-2 wages are what feed Mom and the kids, get you qualified for the home loan to buy your (next) house, pay for college, and do all the nice things that money does buy. Some 3rd year 737 FO at ABC looking at XYZ's rates for a 3rd year 737 FO and thinking he's underpaid is only a valid comparison if XYZ actually HAS 3-year 737 FO's! If everybody at XYZ in their 3rd year is still on the panel (or the E-190, or the F-100, or whatever), that isn't a valid number!

True story: UAL once (once!!! and utterly unique and never-gonna-see-it-again circumstances) had a 4th year pilot as a 737 captain... and their 4-year captain rate at the time was better than SWA's 4-year captain rate. Some guys looked no further than those two numbers, and the fact that SWA was running about a 5 year time to upgrade, and jumped ship to UAL... only then to find out that they'd be on the panel for a while and an FO for a long, long time... the only guy who made captain in 4 years were the VERY BOTTOM of the VERY FIRST bid to United Shuttle (which had some serious stigma attached to it among United pilots). Normal upgrade times (i.e. by the time these guys from SWA arrived at United) were running much, much longer -- 10-12 years plus, I think. Bottom line, on a year-by-year basis, the guys at SWA had W-2's that met or exceeded their year-group contemporaries at UAL, even though the hourly wage charts looked like SWA was left behind in the dust.

(Then you get into how many credit hours you can actually get paid for each month at each place -- not entirely related to block hours actually flown, and that before considering sitting reserve vs not sitting reserve... then talk about retirement, A-plans, B-fund, 401(k), profit sharing, etc... and you see how the picture gets a lot bigger than hourly pay rates pretty quickly.)

Don't get fooled into focusing on the bit of the iceberg that's visible and ignoring the larger part of it that isn't so easily seen below the water! There's a lot more to annual pay and career earnings than just hourly rates!
 
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mach none

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snoop,

Very well said, but my piece of the iceberg is now 34.3% smaller.
 

ironwedge

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UALjan15 said:
I think what he is saying is that you can have the highest hourly pay on the chart, but if you're only flying 43 hours/month, your paycheck is going to suck.

Snoopy58 said:
Pay rate is one part of the picture, but it isn't the whole thing, not by a long shot.

Hey guys, I think...no I hope, most in the industry understand rate*hours flown=pay.

Monthly guarantee is a manpower tool that has benefit to the pilot group and to the company, unless it's 43 hours then it's a raw deal for pilots.

IF we're talking about about a monthly guarantee, Kitty Hawk agrees to pay their Captains (rate*43) at a minimum. and yes that IS a low guarantee compared to the rest of the industry. My guess is that a pilot at Kitty Hawk has the opportunity to fly MORE than 43 hours per month by schedule or by picking up trips. To be a reserve at Kitty Hawk, and not have the ability to fly more than the 43 hour guarantee would indeed SUCK.

Bottom Line: rate*hours flown=pay. No $hit

For an example:

Pilot A: A Kitty Hawk pilot has the opportunity to fly 75 hours per month for 12 months ($174*75*12=$156,600).

Pilot B: A Southwest pilot that drops trips to get an adjusted* credit time of 65 hours per month for 12 months ($182*65*12=$141,960) [*Southwest pays by trip I know, but for the sake of an example bare with me].

Who made more money based on hours flown - Pilot A or pilot B?


Monthly guarantee is a minimum pay, and no argument that Kitty Hawk's guarantee is lagging the rest of the industry. But it's a minimum.

If the guarantee is a maximum - that's called a salary.
 

Yank McCobb

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ironwedge said:
For an example:

Pilot A: A Kitty Hawk pilot has the opportunity to fly 75 hours per month for 12 months ($174*75*12=$156,600).

Pilot B: A Southwest pilot that drops trips to get an adjusted* credit time of 65 hours per month for 12 months ($182*65*12=$141,960) [*Southwest pays by trip I know, but for the sake of an example bare with me].

Who made more money based on hours flown - Pilot A or pilot B?

Neither of your "examples" is realistic. Sure, anyone can think up a scenario that would skew things into a particular pigeon-hole. ("What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub?" for example.:rolleyes: )

Track down a Kitty Hawk pilot. Ask them when was the last time they had the "opportunity" to fly 75 hours in a month. Any month. Let alone do it every month in a year.

I have another "example" for you. What if my company allowed me to maximize my pay credits by simply saying, "we are going to pay you 150 credits a month for the next 12 months while you research if by doing this for every pilot on the property, would it have an impact on our profitability"?

Who would make more money? Me or the pilot flying an average schedule?

Based on my "exapmle", I would. But this has about as much to do with anything as your "example".
 

ironwedge

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Yank McCobb said:
Neither of your "examples" is realistic.

Maybe not, but do you disagree with the logic? I did say that it was for the sake of example right?

That chart shows an hourly rate comparison, I'm not sure why anyone would read a monthly guarantee into it. The chart doesn't address guarantees or make any assumption or forecast for W2 earnings. It also doesn't project career earnings.

Based on HOURLY RATES only, Kitty Hawk pilots are paid an HOURLY rate second only to Southwest. No?
 

Ty Webb

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ironwedge said:
That chart shows an hourly rate comparison, I'm not sure why anyone would read a monthly guarantee into it.


Hey, here's one for you- I'll pay you $700./hr to fly this 737. Guarantee? Hey, don't worry about it! You're getting $700. bucks an hour, Chief! :rolleyes:
 

Yank McCobb

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ironwedge said:
Maybe not, but do you disagree with the logic?

I don't disagree that the hourly rate posted at Kitty Hawk is higher than anyone but SWA. However, I cannot agree to your "logic" because there is none. Pay is pay. And to me, pay = money that can be used for expenses or saved for the future. I cannot "spend" nor "save" an hourly rate. I CAN spend or save what that hourly rates translates into as far as actual dollars earned. THAT is the only thing you can use to compare one company's pay to another's.
 

ironwedge

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Yank McCobb said:
I don't disagree that the hourly rate posted at Kitty Hawk is higher than anyone but SWA. However, I cannot agree to your "logic" because there is none. Pay is pay.

Are you this much fun to fly with too? :)

The chart at APC shows an hourly rate. That's all. It doesn't infer anything other than hourly rate and clearly doesn't infer a ranking of annual compensation...only hourly rate.

That said, ask a 12 year Capt. at Bigsky (making $42/hr) if he thinks Hourly Rate influences potential W2 earnings.
 

Baby Cakes

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ironwedge said:
That said, ask a 12 year Capt. at Bigsky (making $42/hr) if he thinks Hourly Rate influences potential W2 earnings.

That's exactly right. Hourly rate is the Big Kahuna of what our W2 looks like at the end of the year. Give me more!
 

climbhappy

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Othello:

The Fine Folks( We Thank You) At Hooters Air Make

Yr 1 Fo Cpt

33500 69000

2 36500 74000

3 39500 77500

4 41500 81000

This Is A Scientific Wild Ass Guess! ( Swag)
 
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