7 to 10 737's at FREEDUM

[big dog1]

A J4J Pilot getting a checkride out in PHX was told face to face by Ken Mayfield that the 737 was a go, in fact one had already been acquired and was being fixed up at an airport in AZ (not PHX).

Ken said 7 to 10 737's to be based in PIT and operated under the Freedom Certificate. Seems Mesa thinks Airways pulled out so much flying that there's an opportunity in that market.

Also, a J4J Pilot who worked in the 737 training department at Airways was offered a job in PHX helping to put a 737 CFM together.

After 15 years in this industry I've seen more rumors than I can count, but I think this one is past the point of being a rumor.

What I don't understand is how these 737's will be allowed under the various scope clauses

 

[328dude]

It's not worth the effort.

(sigh)

 

[vc10]

Freedom is a separate certificate from Mesa Air. Mesa flies for US Airways and United. If Freedom does not, then Freedom is not affected by US Airways and United scope, even if Freedom is owned by Mesa.

Scope is generally on a certificate basis, because an airline is defined by a certificate.

 

[c152]

If it was the case why does ACA just place there dojets ACAjet certificate? That was bought back from Delta. Then they would be able to do independence air and fly on the delta side?

 

[GogglesPisano]

ACA allowed the ACJet Certificate to expire.

New FAA interpretation: use it or loose it.

 

[crashpad]

Confirmed this morning...this is not a rumor.

 

[lazy8s]

here it comes......

I'm not a "raise/lower the bar" Preacher but, I can see the whole discussion firing up again.

Personally, I don't think that 737's belong at Freedom or under the mesa umbrella or at ANY 'regional'. But, then again I'm not running an airline.


Lazy8s

 

[mesa rocks]

I would still put all this in the rumor category.

Even with this so called "confirmation" the details still contradict all kinds of other things I've heard.

- the first 737 was in PHX. Now it is in an undisclosed airport in AZ not PHX hmmm...

- the CFM is already written and ready. Now they're hiring J4J guy to start writing it.

- there still isn't any official company word (besides ornsteins little tidbit in an article).

- no official union word about rate negotiations for this supposed summerstart up.

- Mesa to compete directly against it's own codeshare partner in one of it's hubs. At the same time, providing RJ feed for that partner.

I'm still sticking with my original analysis that ornstein is helping Siegal scare the U labor groups into more concessions.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

The Mesa pilots' idea of $100/hr to fly a 737 is probably $70 for the CA and $30 for the FO. You guys have that ironclad scope that you sold out the entire small jet industry to get. Now have some cojones and tell Ornstein SWA pay or he can ride one of his 15 motorcycles off a cliff!

 

[B1900DFO]

Even $100/hour would be a joke for a 737 captain considering their work rules, schedules, and retirement. But I sure as heck wouldn't put it past Mesa to gladly accept it.

 

[exphojump]

Project "ROAM"

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=pr...tp://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03288/231212.stm

http://www.nepanews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10317381&BRD=2212&PAG=461&dept_id=465812&rfi=6

From JO's mouth,

http://www.atwonline.com/archives/news/archive_news_mar0104.cfm#March 02, 2004

So you want to start a discount carrier out of PIT and don't have enough capital for shiny new 737-700s?

Come on down to JO's used plane lot.

We've got 737-300s in the desert, good as new.

Hell, we'll throw the employees in the deal for a few bucks more.

Just a guess

 

[Heavy Set]

Get ready to watch wages further plummet... For all of the junior pilots out there hoping to make $150-200K someday as a major pilot, forget it................. You can thank JO and Siegel for that!

 

[TheInsider]

I am not disputing JO's business practices. His business tactics may even border the unethical but still be fully legal. On the other hand the man is creating jobs, not taking them away which would be far worse. If Mesa sucks don't work there, if the pay sucks, dont work there. Don't blame JO for creating a new airline undercutting everyone else in pay. People have a choice to fly for that wage or not.
After all we all live in a country embracing the wonders of capitalism. It can be good, it can be bad. Just be glad you are not flying for a Hong Kong airline. In HK unions are not allowed. THAT would suck!

 

[StaySeated]

"On the other hand the man is creating jobs, not taking them away which would be far worse. "

The above statement is an example of the shortsighted perspective that is causing the problem with our industry. Creating a job, any job, regardless of the pay and workrules is NOT the answer. Thousands of pilots went on strike and thousands others negotiated in unity to rid the industry of "b" scales and other below standard work rules.

Getting thrown the keys to a used 73 and working for nothing is not a step in the right direction.

Just curious, have there been any discussions regarding pay or does your current contract even have a seat limit (i.e. 45-50 seat, 70 and above...)If you guys haven't started talking please reallize that you are not in the same situation as USA. Don't set the standard lower by trying to achieve some market share. A dozen 73's will not dent any other airline's plans in any market.

If you guys get real pay and benefits then congrats are in order. If not, tell JO to go away. If your current contract does not have rates for this aircraft then you have a significant amount of bargaining power.

 

[mckpickle]

I am not disputing JO's business practices. His business tactics may even border the unethical but still be fully legal. On the other hand the man is creating jobs, not taking them away which would be far worse. If Mesa sucks don't work there, if the pay sucks, dont work there. Don't blame JO for creating a new airline undercutting everyone else in pay. People have a choice to fly for that wage or not.
After all we all live in a country embracing the wonders of capitalism. It can be good, it can be bad. Just be glad you are not flying for a Hong Kong airline. In HK unions are not allowed. THAT would suck!

Dude what do you smoke?

If he creates jobs at a lower price structure it TAKES AWAY JOBS from another sector, ie Airways or someone else.

 

[Heavy Set]

Theinsider,

Why don't we just outsource the pilot jobs to Indian pilots who would love to fly the airplanes for $10 an hour?

Sure, that can't and won't happen, but do you get my point? Let's keep on lowering the bar more and more and then any "good" wages will be gone for the industry. Flying will become more of a commodity job. How many people spend tens of thousands of dollars learning and qualifying for airline pilot positions and then end up with a serious debt problem because they don't earn enough? Not everyone is military trained - especially those pilots flying for MESA (many have unfortunately paid for their expensive training).

Ornstein, by the way, loves to hear your justifications. Keep on adding fuel to the fire...

 

[100LL... Again!]

Here's the problem -

Suppose I was furloughed.

Suppose I needed to get current again.

Suppose they hire me, and I fly for them lg nough to quit and o get a better job.

Why not?

Should I let some PFT'er come in and take the job, and let them get ahead of me after paying my dues al these years?

We can shake our tiny fist at the rain and the tide all we like, but supply and demand are elemental forces of human nature.

There will lways be SOMEONE who will take the job.

Let's look at this race to the bottom:

Suppose Mesa offers pilots $12/hr for 737 CA and $8/hr for FO's.

How many takers would we see? Only low timers or people in need of some quick jet time.

The race can only go so far. It will go until the laws of supply and demand are satisfied.

Before Deregulation, an artificial constraint existed in the market- a limited number of airlines could compete for flying. This meant that the airline's pilot groups had more leverage in negotiations. There were no RJ's, and nothing like the current CMR/DAL scenario.

The floodgates have been opened. I don't like it either. We must FACE THE FACT that the enemy is not who we think it is.

We keep blaming the pilots who willeing to work for Mesa wages.

If you had 500hrs and could go fly a turbine aircraft, wouldn't you? Especially if the rest of the industry looked so bleak? At least you would be logging time until things picked up and you could move on to a better job.

 

[mesa rocks]

Here's the problem -

Suppose I was furloughed.

Suppose I needed to get current again.

Suppose they hire me, and I fly for them lg nough to quit and o get a better job.

Why not?

Should I let some PFT'er come in and take the job, and let them get ahead of me after paying my dues al these years?

We can shake our tiny fist at the rain and the tide all we like, but supply and demand are elemental forces of human nature.

There will lways be SOMEONE who will take the job.

Let's look at this race to the bottom:

Suppose Mesa offers pilots $12/hr for 737 CA and $8/hr for FO's.

How many takers would we see? Only low timers or people in need of some quick jet time.

The race can only go so far. It will go until the laws of supply and demand are satisfied.

Before Deregulation, an artificial constraint existed in the market- a limited number of airlines could compete for flying. This meant that the airline's pilot groups had more leverage in negotiations. There were no RJ's, and nothing like the current CMR/DAL scenario.

The floodgates have been opened. I don't like it either. We must FACE THE FACT that the enemy is not who we think it is.

We keep blaming the pilots who willeing to work for Mesa wages.

If you had 500hrs and could go fly a turbine aircraft, wouldn't you? Especially if the rest of the industry looked so bleak? At least you would be logging time until things picked up and you could move on to a better job.

I think you hit the nail on the head. You can't beat the forces of the market (especially in todays environment) you can only hope to slow it.

It is now easier for the average Joe to become an airline pilot. And there are plenty of flight schools out there willing to take students money. And plenty of students out there willing to sacrifice to get their "perceived" peace of the pie.

supply and demand. It sucks. but thats how it works. don't know if there is an answer.

but don't let this bit of logic get in the way of some more anonymous slamming, flaming, my dad could beat up your dad, chat board bashing!!

 

[AirBoard]

So let me see if I get this straight.

USairway pilot furloughed out of the 737 making 100K+. Works at Home Depot, then gets called back to fly the same 737 under J4J within the Freedom cert. for ~30K.

I'm going to get my real estate license because this is getting ridiculous!!!

 

[Stinkbug]

~30K?

30K? Where do you get that number from? The rates haven't been negotiated. All of you guys need to chill out and see what happens; quit armchair quarterbacking this issue.

 

[Mongolikecandy]

I think you hit the nail on the head. You can't beat the forces of the market (especially in todays environment) you can only hope to slow it.

What the hell has the Mesa pilot group done to slow it? If anything you've given it a giant push downhill.

 

[Soulfly]

Gentleman,

As a Mesa Pilot (voted no, by the way) the problem at Mesa is a total and complete lack of unity amongst the pilot group.

This is being sustained by a large number of domiciles (20+), management that has denied ALPA releases, and a need for an MEC and LEC shakeup.


Anyone with any good suggestions?

I've had enough for a lifetime......

 

[mesa rocks]

What the hell has the Mesa pilot group done to slow it? If anything you've given it a giant push downhill.

how about stopping the persistent whip saw of the mesa pilots with all manner techniques like buying CCAir, creating freedom etc.. By securing some scope language. Gathering all of that flying under one group and one voice. Stopped the creation of a non union freedom (where no pilot would have even had the chance of a collective voice). Put hundreds of CCair pilots back to work after there jobs were threatened and eventually eliminated by the whipsaw at work.

All the while, actually "improving" a very ugly contract. Not saying it was what we all wanted, but we had a list of a million things that needed to be done. I think we did OK considering the circumstances we were in.

Of course I will expect to here about a million anonymous bashing replies from plenty of you armchair quarterbacks that think that the economics of this industry does not apply to them or their pilot group.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Or how about not working there.

PS: Stalin created plenty of jobs too ... in cold places. Doesn't make him an admirable businessman.