61.23 vs. 61.51

[skyking1976]

I'll make this short...

Do you have to have a medical certificate to log PIC time. One arguement is:

61.23 (a) and (b) lists specific operations that either require or do not require a medical. Sole manipulator of controls without acting as PIC is not explicitly listed in either section.

the other is:

61.51 (e) lists guidelines for logging PIC flight time and specifies:
"A rec., pvt., or comm. pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person -
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated...

How would you make the decision? Why would you make the decision the way you did? And, is there a "gray" area?

Thanx,

SK

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'll try to make this equally short (probably unsuccessfully). Yes, Virginia, a pilot may log PIC time without a current medical certificate. And, no, it is not a grey area at all.

Under 61.23(a) a person requires a medical certificate when "exercising the privileges" of certain certificates. A pilot is exercising the privileges of a certificate when the pilot is acting as a required crewmember. If you're not acting as a required crewmember, you don't need a medical certificate.

That's why, for example, a safety pilot does need a medical certificate and a CFI who is not acting as PIC does not, even while giving instruction in flight.

The logging rules are just that - rules that tell us whether we can count time spent in an aircraft. They have nothing to do with whether a pilot is a required crewmember or not. And Rule #1 of logging PIC, for example is:

Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing.

The closest semi-official statement is in the Part 61 FAQ. Although the question specifically deal with CFIs, the bottom line is the same:

==============================
QUESTION: Question regarding 61.51(e)(3) and 61.23(b)(5)-- Can a CFI who is exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate under 61.23(b)(5) log PIC even though he or she does not have a valid medical certificate.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(e)(3): Yes, the CFI may log it as PIC time. As I have stated in the past the rules are different between "logging PIC time" under § 1.1 vs. "acting as the PIC" under § 61.51(e)(3). The CFI cannot "act as the PIC" without a medical certificate, but he or she can certainly "log it as PIC time."
==============================

 

[BradG]

That's why, for example, a safety pilot does need a medical certificate and a CFI who is not acting as PIC does not, even while giving instruction in flight.

The logging rules are just that - rules that tell us whether we can count time spent in an aircraft. They have nothing to do with whether a pilot is a required crewmember or not. And Rule #1 of logging PIC, for example is:

Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.
==============================

You mention that a safety pilot doesnt need a medical. Under 61.3, it states that no person may act as a required crewmember without a medical, then gives a list of exemptions. Safety pilot is not found under this list.

61.3 (c)

(c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft.

(2) A person is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (c)(1) of this section if that person --

(i) Is exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking a pilot certificate with a glider category rating or balloon class rating;

(ii) Is holding a pilot certificate with a balloon class rating and is piloting or providing training in a balloon as appropriate;

(iii) Is holding a pilot certificate or a flight instructor certificate with a glider category rating, and is piloting or providing training in a glider, as appropriate;

(iv) Except as provided in paragraph (c)(2)(iii) of this section, is exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate, provided the person is not acting as pilot in command or as a required pilot flight crewmember;

(v) Is exercising the privileges of a ground instructor certificate;

(vi) Is operating an aircraft within a foreign country using a pilot license issued by that country and possesses evidence of current medical qualification for that license; or

(vii) Is operating an aircraft with a U.S. pilot certificate, issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license, issued under § 61.75 of this part, and holds a current medical certificate issued by the foreign country that issued the foreign pilot license, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that airman certificate.



If it were true, its important to note that the safety pilot may not log PIC time if they do not possess a medical certificate. The safety pilot normally may log PIC time based on the fact that they are acting as PIC in an operation that requires 2 pilots. With no medical, you cant act as PIC, therefore not being able to log the time. But again, i cant find anywhere in the regs that allows this operation without a medical certificate, because the safety pilot is a required crewmember.

B

 

[midlifeflyer]

You mention that a safety pilot doesnt need a medical.

You got me worried for a moment. But, no I didn't say that. Read it again.

 

[BradG]

I appologize for my incompetence. My reading skills are apparently a bit lacking today.....must be the aftereffects of new years. Touche....

B

 

[midlifeflyer]

I appologize for my incompetence. My reading skills are apparently a bit lacking today.....must be the aftereffects of new years. Touche....

Anyone here who has never misread something, raise your hand.



...



Didn't think so.