50 or 100 miles from shore

[kilroy]

I heard from a few people there is now an exemption for the 50 miles from shore requirement for a raft. They say you can apply for an exemption not to have a raft up to 100 miles from shore part 135 and 91 anyone have anymore info on this.??

 

[jumper52]

common sense!!

I don't know about you, but I feel much better knowing that I have a raft "just in case" No raft 100 miles out? There are things in the pond that like to nibble on the feet!!!! No thanks.

Cheers

 

[spngbobsqrpilot]

No raft 100 miles out?

Some aircraft can glide 100+ miles from the high 30's and above.

I think that's where the exemption comes in.

You must fly at an altititude allowing the glide to the shore.

Not trying to give a smart@ss answer, but I remember someone discussing this a few years ago and that was the rational behind the exemption.

 

[kilroy]

The problem is in small jets there is not alot of room and a 35000 feet you can glide over a hondred miles

Some aircraft can glide 100+ miles from the high 30's and above.

I think that's where the exemption comes in.

You must fly at an altititude allowing the glide to the shore.

Not trying to give a smart@ss answer, but I remember someone discussing this a few years ago and that was the rational behind the exemption.

 

[avbug]

How long can you tread water?

 

[kilroy]

I think alot of people are thinking you'll be over the ocean without a raft.. But the main reason for this rule change is first of all these rules were made back in the Dc-4 days with airplanes flying at 8000 feet not 35000. Down in the islands and around Florida you limit yourself by not carrying a bulky space taken raft. Arrivals that take you over off shore the Q-routes Ar7 or Ar1 of the east coast. So by doing this you can save alot of flight time but not having to loose a seat to a big raft for the little time you are over water

How long can you tread water?

 

[avbug]

So, how long can you tread water?

 

[kilroy]

It all depends if I,m wearing my regular pilot monkey uniform about an hour but if I'm wearing my tiger g-string swimming suit without the leather chaps I can tread most of the day..

So, how long can you tread water?

 

[JAFI]

Well you don't have to worry about how long you can tread water in "the Islands". You just have to be able to swim faster than the sharks. In the warm water there are lots of them (and other hungry critters) and a human swimmer is not at the top of the food chain.

Any safety equipment is just dead weight until you need it, then it is a life saver.



But to answer the first question, I have no idea where your information came from. Some of the airlines have an exemption to go out to 160 miles but there is an entire approval process and I think it is an ATA exception. So unless you are in the ATA you cannot use it.



Good luck with the search.



JAFI

Just Another Friendly Inspector

 

[SabreFlyR]

This is the reg for overwater equipment in a part 25 transport category a/c. It's been for the past ten years that I know of.



91.509

(a) No person may take off an airplane for a flight over water more than 50 nautical miles from the nearest shore unless that airplane is equipped with a life preserver or an approved flotation means for each occupant of the airplane.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may take off an airplane for flight over water more than 30 minutes flying time or 100 nautical miles from the nearest shore, whichever is less, unless it has on board the following survival equipment:

(1) A life preserver, equipped with an approved survivor locator light, for each occupant of the airplane.

(2) Enough liferafts (each equipped with an approved survival locator light) of a rated capacity and buoyancy to accommodate the occupants of the airplane.

(3) At least one pyrotechnic signaling device for each liferaft.

(4) One self-buoyant, water-resistant, portable emergency radio signaling device that is capable of transmission on the appropriate emergency frequency or frequencies and not dependent upon the airplane power supply.

(5) A lifeline stored in accordance with §25.1411(g) of this chapter.

(c) A fractional ownership program manager under subpart K of this part may apply for a deviation from paragraphs (b)(2) through (5) of this section for a particular over water operation or the Administrator may amend the management specifications to require the carriage of all or any specific items of the equipment listed in paragraphs (b)(2) through (5) of this section.

(d) The required life rafts, life preservers, and signaling devices must be installed in conspicuously marked locations and easily accessible in the event of a ditching without appreciable time for preparatory procedures.

(e) A survival kit, appropriately equipped for the route to be flown, must be attached to each required life raft.

(f) As used in this section, the term shore means that area of the land adjacent to the water that is above the high water mark and excludes land areas that are intermittently under water

 

[TDTURBO]

I fly a 182rg and use a raft routinely when flying over shark infested waters. I also have 4 people and luggage and no problem puting a 5 man raft in the plane. They are super small and I doubt would compromise that much space in a light jet.

 

[dash8driver]

You just have to be able to swim faster than the sharks.

not true... you just have to be able to swim faster than the other pax..

 

[JAFI]

That's true, I'll restate:

You have to swim faster than the other humans untill you are the last one, then you have to swim faster than the sharks.

 

[avbug]

Or you could just swim behind the sharks.

 

[flyby]

Or you could just swim behind the sharks.

You'd still have to swim faster than a shark to stay behind one... unless of course the shark had a deferred rudder and was incapable of turning. As soon as it turns you're back in front.

 

[avbug]

Technically, so long as you stay behind it and remain at the same distance, you need only go as fast as the shark...unless it's turning in continuous circles.

When I was younger, among other hobbies I did some rodeo clowning. You never tried to outrun a bull. In a flat out run the bull was a lot faster. In the case of the bull, you just need to out turn it. Stay to one side, and make it change directions a lot. Change directions, then run.

There's always shark repellant and dye. You don't need to worry about the shark; the dye burns you all by itself.

There's always the old robinson carusoe USN style advice that says if you strike the shark squarely on the nose with the hilt of a dive knife, the shark will swim away. I think that ranks right along the folks who recommend stroking the belly of an alligator.

If you swim faster than the shark, and you're behind the shark, you'll swim your way in front of the shark, and then you're in trouble.

Carry ice cream. Sharks love ice cream. Given a choice between you and the ice cream, the sharks will take vanilla ripple fudge every time. Don't get any on you.

Warm waters with sharks is the time when you realize you would have been a lot better off carrying that sacrificial service monkey. Hindsight is always twenty twenty.

I need out of this hotel. Really badly. Really, really badly.

 

[flyby]

When I was younger, among other hobbies I did some rodeo clowning. You never tried to outrun a bull. In a flat out run the bull was a lot faster. In the case of the bull, you just need to out turn it. Stay to one side, and make it change directions a lot. Change directions, then run.

I need out of this hotel. Really badly. Really, really badly.

Maybe it's more about acceleration and not so much top speed? I have a lower top speed than a shark or a bull but I'd say my acceleration is better matched to the bull. I'd face a bull over a shark any day of the week.

That makes 2 of us on needing out of the hotel... finally time to head to the airport.

 

[avbug]

Play tag with a bull and then see what you think. They're not sluggish.

Ever since I saw that series of documentaries on sharks and big fish, where the shark was captured on film eating a helicopter...I avoid them. I believe the series was called "jaws." Never mess with fish that eat helicopters. Even if you can outswim them.

Just carry a zodiac with a big engine on board, and a dozen or so quartersticks of TNT for the fish.

And never inlfate your vest while still in the airplane. You won't get out, and the fish can't go deep enough to get you when you go down with the airplane.

 

[Lead Sled]

I heard from a few people there is now an exemption for the 50 miles from shore requirement for a raft. They say you can apply for an exemption not to have a raft up to 100 miles from shore part 135 and 91 anyone have anymore info on this.??

Let's say you could get an exemption...

Killroy, honestly now, would you really want to 100 miles out bobbing around in a life-jacket? Personally, I wouldn't even want to be 10 miles out. The first rule of aviation survival states that what's legal isn't always safe and what's safe isn't always legal. I love guys who reason that the engine will never quit, so we'll never need to use the raft(s), so we may as well apply for the exemption. You see that same mentality occassionally in corporate types that are willing accept a "wet footprint" on certain ocanic legs.

'Sled

 

[avbug]

Oh, the engine will quit. Sooner or later. Perhaps right away, perhaps in many thousands of hours. But it's NEVER a matter of if. Only when.

Of course, it doesn't take an engine failure. A pressurization failure means a descent to a much lower altitude. Fuel consumption goes up considerably. The bingo point for high altitude cruise changes accordingly; suddenly at a lesser altitude, the aircraft may not be capable of making landfall with that big old wet footprint. A fully functional engine isn't much help in a glide.

It might be a duct overtemp. The bleed is shut off; nothing wrong with pressurization, but it has to come down. Or any number of other things, particular to that individual airplane. Point is that loopholes are for idiots; carry the raft, know the aircraft from the rudder pedals to the farthest emergency exit better than the back of your hand and blindfolded, and yes, you had better be able to tread water.

Who knows? You might even impress the sharks.

It certainly worked in Shark Tales.