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5 endorsements and CFI renewal?

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citabriapilot

V Murdda...
Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Posts
361
I have endorsed 5 students for a checkride and have an 80% pass rate. According to FAR regarding CFI renewal, it says to log the names of the students who were endorsed and the results of the checkride. Is this sufficient for renewal? Some of the senior CFI's I have talked to told me that I had to keep a copy of the 8710 and a copy of the temporary certificate. The FAR's don't stipulate this, so I had no idea. Did I screw myself out of this type of renewal?
 
Hi...

There are several ways in which to keep the records required by § 61.189 and § 61.197. Certainly you can keep a copy of an 8710 and the temporary, but it is not required. As long as you have in a log the persons name, the type of test, the date and the results, that's all you'll need to show the inspector for renewal. Don't forget an 8710 for yourself as well. Good luck and congrats.

Regards
 
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What the FAR (61.197(a)(2) actually says is: "Presenting to an authorized FAA Flight Standards Inspector - (i) A record of training students showing that, during the preceding 24 calender months, the flight instructor has endorsed at least five students for a practical test for a certificate or rating and at least 80 percent passed on the first attempt."

That first part - "presenting to an Inspector - a record of training..." , that's up to the FSDO or the individual inspector to whom you present.

A copy of the 8710 and temporary certificate, or notice of disapproval, is a convenient way, but not really necessary. That may be the way your FSDO wants it, but a list of dates, names, type of endorsement, and results should suffice. Best to call and get a clarification fom the FSDO.
 
All FSDO's have access to the fed's pilot information database. All you need is the names, dates, and results of each applicant you signed off. The inspector simply submits the info to OKC for review. That's why it takes up to 120 days to get a permanent.
 
CFI records

I kept my records of signoffs in the "notes" section of my logbook and never had any trouble proving my signoffs to FSDO.

In fact, 14 CFR 61.189 states that maintaining signoff records in a logbook is appropriate:



Sec. 61.189 - Flight instructor records.


(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

(b) A flight instructor must maintain a record in a logbook or a separate document that contains the following:

(1) The name of each person whose logbook or student pilot certificate that instructor has endorsed for solo flight privileges, and the date of the endorsement; and

(2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results. (c) Each flight instructor must retain the records required by this section for at least 3 years.

Hope that helps some more.
 
The Inspector can process the computer search quicker if you have certificate numbers. If your students names are something like "Wilbert Idaho Wolfnagel (not a real name)" this could be quick. If your students are "Bob Smiths" it could take much longer. I did a search once and had over one hundred pilots with the same name. Remember you have to prove your pass rate to the INSPECTORS satisfaction, not yours. Unless you have lots of time and wish to sit in the FSDO while the Inspector searches.JAFI
 
GOOD LUCK if trying in Houston. They took me through the wringer for 4 hours. Sorry folks, but logbook entries, dates, and names are NOT enough in KEFD. You will need copies of the students 8710 to get out without hassle. And, if you signed a student off on Friday the 12th and they took the checkride on Monday the 15th, then you are a LIAR and a CROOK! Because if you're dates don't "match" then expect an interview with the devil. I had to have the DPE fax copies of everything because I had written down Len instead of Leonard or JC Smith instead of James Corry Smith, etc.

Good luck..........

The names have been changed to protect the innocent.
 
Names, Dates and that is it. The FSDO can lookup what students you have sent with the click of a button. I had a little trouble because the computer did not show a some of the students. A quick look revealed that they were all IACRA applicants. so a few clicks later the FSDO had the entire list and the process only took about 20 minutes.
 
DAS at 10/250 said:
GOOD LUCK if trying in Houston. They took me through the wringer for 4 hours. Sorry folks, but logbook entries, dates, and names are NOT enough in KEFD. You will need copies of the students 8710 to get out without hassle. And, if you signed a student off on Friday the 12th and they took the checkride on Monday the 15th, then you are a LIAR and a CROOK! Because if you're dates don't "match" then expect an interview with the devil. I had to have the DPE fax copies of everything because I had written down Len instead of Leonard or JC Smith instead of James Corry Smith, etc.

Good luck..........

The names have been changed to protect the innocent.

Whew! Sounds like you got an Inspector who's wife had him on restriction. Glad to see you made it through. Orlando FSDO is full of wonderful folks as well.
 
Kinda going off in a tangent here, but who has let their CFI expire, then got it back. Not that I would be stupid enough to let a license expire...

I was instructing, then went to work for one of my students and let my ticket expire. A few of the people I was flying with want me to get it back. As soon as I have time, I'm going to drive down to the FSDO and have a nice little chat. In the meantime, anybody here do it? Same number of hoops to jump through, or fewer? Did you have to retake knowledge exams, or just flight? To reinstate, can you do it with a DE, or must with a fed? Or is it FSDO dependent?

Any help would be great!
 
A DE or Inspector (who is authorized) can reinstate a expired CFI. It must be a flight test in an aircraft, not a simulator. On my calander three months prior to my due date I write "Renew CFI". It works for me. You can renew up to three months prior to your date and still keep the same date.

JAFI
------------------------------------------
General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, Order 8700.1



CHAPTER 11. CONDUCT A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR INITIAL/ REINSTATEMENT/RENEWAL CERTIFICATION AND ADDITIONAL CATEGORY/CLASS RATINGS



13. REINSTATEMENT. The holder of an expired flight instructor certificate issued after November 1, 1975, may have all ratings on the certificate reinstated by satisfactorily completing a single practical test. The applicant need not provide a complex airplane for the practical test. No knowledge test is required.
 
Add-on for reinstatement

JAFI said:
General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, Order 8700.1



CHAPTER 11. CONDUCT A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR INITIAL/ REINSTATEMENT/RENEWAL CERTIFICATION AND ADDITIONAL CATEGORY/CLASS RATINGS



13. REINSTATEMENT. The holder of an expired flight instructor certificate issued after November 1, 1975, may have all ratings on the certificate reinstated by satisfactorily completing a single practical test. The applicant need not provide a complex airplane for the practical test. No knowledge test is required.
Meaning, if I were to get my Commercial Glider and CFI-G, that would freshen my BFR and reinstate my CFI, right?
 
I renewed my CFI yesterday this way. It has been a while since I instructed, but I still had more than 5 signoffs within the last 24 months. All I brought in to the FSDO was an 8710 form filled out for renewal, my records (including: names, signoff date, type of test and result - no copies of students temps or pink slips). This was more than sufficient and I was out of there within 15 minutes with a new CFI certificate (temporary) in my hand...

Easiest way by far to renew your CFI if you have the signoffs required! I won't be able to to this next time more than likely...
 
Sniper Bob said:
Kinda going off in a tangent here, but who has let their CFI expire, then got it back. Not that I would be stupid enough to let a license expire...

I was instructing, then went to work for one of my students and let my ticket expire. A few of the people I was flying with want me to get it back. As soon as I have time, I'm going to drive down to the FSDO and have a nice little chat. In the meantime, anybody here do it? Same number of hoops to jump through, or fewer? Did you have to retake knowledge exams, or just flight? To reinstate, can you do it with a DE, or must with a fed? Or is it FSDO dependent?

Any help would be great!

You can also add a new rating. ie an MEI, that will revalidate your CFI, it is another option. PM me, I will let you know what I am doing.

AA
 
You need a checkride, DE is okay

Sniper Bob said:
Kinda going off in a tangent here, but who has let their CFI expire, then got it back. Not that I would be stupid enough to let a license expire...

I was instructing, then went to work for one of my students and let my ticket expire. A few of the people I was flying with want me to get it back. As soon as I have time, I'm going to drive down to the FSDO and have a nice little chat. In the meantime, anybody here do it? Same number of hoops to jump through, or fewer? Did you have to retake knowledge exams, or just flight? To reinstate, can you do it with a DE, or must with a fed? Or is it FSDO dependent?

Any help would be great!

You will need to take a ride.
 
Bobbysamd said: "Meaning, if I were to get my Commercial Glider and CFI-G, that would freshen my BFR and reinstate my CFI, right?"

I would say yes. Your pilot certificate would have a new issue date and a new CFI certificate always reinstates a out of date CFI. Just the thought of a commercial glider and CFI-G would be tons of fun to get. Good luck and have fun!!....

JAFI
 
AA and others,

If your CFI certificate is expired, you cannot reinstate by taking another CFI test (glider, MEI etc). You must be tested on one of the ratings already on his expired certificate.

Section 61.199: Expired flight instructor certificates and ratings.
(a) Flight instructor certificates. The holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may exchange that certificate for a new certificate with the same ratings by passing a practical test as prescribed in §61.183(h) of this part for one of the ratings listed on the expired flight instructor certificate.
 
The Ft.Worth FSDO explained it another way. I have already spoken with the DE that I will be taking the MEI with very shortly, not a problem. Everything seems to be in order. I also spoke with AOPA when I took the refresher clinic, they agreed as well.

AA
 
SATCFI you may want to read this:

PART 61 FOQ
QUESTION: Per § 61.199(a), is it permissible for a flight instructor certificate to be reinstated (i.e., the flight instructor certificate has expired) on the basis of an applicant accomplishing an additional flight instructor rating practical test, even though the applicant was not tested on his existing flight instructor ratings? As for example, a person holds an expired flight instructor certificate (a certificate that was issued on or after November 1, 1975) with the following ratings: Airplane Single-engine, Airplane Multiengine, and Instrument-Airplane. The applicant is now requesting to renew his flight instructor certificate by accomplishment of a practical test for an additional flight instructor-Rotorcraft – Helicopter rating.



ANSWER: Ref. § 61.199(a); Yes, it is permissible for a flight instructor certificate to be reinstated on the basis of an applicant accomplishing an additional flight instructor rating practical test.



Answered by the FAA’s Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division



July 14, 2000



Ms. Kathy Minner

Technical Specialist

Aviation Services Department

Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association

421 Aviation Way

Frederick, MD 21701-4798



Dear Ms. Minner:



This is in response to your letter dated February 4, 2000, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), regarding § 61.199(a). Specifically, you are concerned about the reinstatement of expired flight instructor certificates and ratings.



As you point out in your letter, § 61.199(a) provides, in pertinent part, that the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may exchange that certificate for a new certificate with the same ratings by passing a practical test for one of the ratings listed on the expired flight instructor certificate. (Emphasis added)



You also point out in your letter that the General Aviation Inspector’s Handbook provides, in pertinent part, that the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may have all ratings on the certificate reinstated by satisfactorily completing a single practical test.



You think the General Aviation Inspector’s Handbook indicates that “any” practical test for a flight instructor certificate or rating would reinstate the expired flight instructor certificate and all the ratings on it. Based on that, you don’t think that the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate is limited to taking a practical for one of the ratings listed on the expired flight instructor certificate to reinstate it as provided for under § 61.199(a). Accordingly, you ask “may a flight instructor reinstate an expired flight instructor certificate by taking any practical test for a flight instructor certificate or rating, or must it be confined to one of those listed on the expired certificate as it seems to state in the regulation.” The answer to this question is discussed below.



§ 61.199(a) applies when the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate only seeks to have that certificate reinstated with the same ratings. It has been the policy of the Flight Standard Services (AFS-800), as articulated in the General Aviation Inspector’s Handbook, to allow the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate who seeks an additional rating to one of those listed on the expired certificate, to reinstate the expired flight instructor certificate, and all the ratings on that expired certificate, by taking, and passing, a practical test for the additional rating sought. As a result, the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may have that certificate and all of the ratings listed on it reinstated by taking, and passing, any practical test for a flight instructor certificate or rating.



I hope this satisfactorily answers your question.



Sincerely,



/s/ Donald P. Byrne

Assistant Chief Counsel

Regulations Division
 
Awesome. That is very valuable information. Thanks. (And I always thought that was one of the easiest regulations to interpret!)
 
CFI reinstatement

JAFI said:
Bobbysamd said: "Meaning, if I were to get my Commercial Glider and CFI-G, that would freshen my BFR and reinstate my CFI, right?"

I would say yes. Your pilot certificate would have a new issue date and a new CFI certificate always reinstates a out of date CFI.
Assistant Chief Counsel said:
It has been the policy of the Flight Standard Services (AFS-800), as articulated in the General Aviation Inspector’s Handbook, to allow the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate who seeks an additional rating to one of those listed on the expired certificate, to reinstate the expired flight instructor certificate, and all the ratings on that expired certificate, by taking, and passing, a practical test for the additional rating sought. As a result, the holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may have that certificate and all of the ratings listed on it reinstated by taking, and passing, any practical test for a flight instructor certificate or rating.
Thank you, sir. I have a friend who is a glider instructor who talks about me getting the ratings with him.
 
bobbysamd said:
Thank you, sir. I have a friend who is a glider instructor who talks about me getting the ratings with him.

Bobby,

Go and do it...you WON'T be dissapointed!

Nu
 
Bobby, Your welcome. It's the least I can do, and never let it be said that I did not do the least I could do....


JAFI
 

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