45 more Rj's for Delta

[Obi-Wan]

I guess Delta has a bid out for 45 more RJ's and the bid is closing before the end of the year. I wonder who is going to win the bid?

 

[Reebo]

50 or 70 seats ?

 

[higherflyer]

The proposal is for 50 seaters for delivery in 2005 and 2006. The current DCI carriers and a few others (XJET, Pinnacle, Horizon, ...?) are bidding for them with proposals due in Atlanta by the middle of the month and with a decision by the end of the year.

 

[JJJ]

I'm 99% sure that NWA will not allow Pinnacle to fly for another airline for about 10 years.

 

[wms]

The memo from the pres of ASA said six airlines. If this includes ACA it's the five current DCI carriers plus one. If not, then it's two new carriers.

 

[General Lee]

It won't be ASA or Comair unless they pay for them with paycuts. Delta already said it didn't have the money. Don't fall for their tricks. Get it in writing and have a notary handy....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General Lee :

8 million (if management got every cut they proposed at Comair for both pilots and Company staff) would not go far to pay for a 1 Billion dollar airplane order. Atfer all, 8 million is 8/10th's of one percent of the cost of the airplanes.

So, your repeated quote just doesn't make much sense. Even if the airplanes go to Mesa, the finance companies will require Delta to sign cancellation provisions.

You can beat the "Comair Concessions" drum all you want, but it does not make much difference. Whether my first officer makes $19.10, or $22.50, an hour does not matter much on an airplane with a $1,600 per hour operating cost.

On the other hand, your pay being 62% more than the industry average for your equipment has slightly more impact.

But who really cares? Your MEC will kill this golden goose, Connection pilots will find better paying jobs elsewhere and as usual, the only folks getting screwed are your own pilots - in order of seniority.

~~~^~~~

 

[pipejockey]

General Lee :


On the other hand, your pay being 62% more than the industry average for your equipment has slightly more impact.
~~~^~~~

And WHY is it 62% above industry standard? Are you suggesting that the Delta pilots roll over and let management have their way?

Not to digress, but I would love to know how much would be added to the 7 big airlines profits if they would just average $10 dollars more per ticket. I believe it would be several hundred million. I dont know about everyone else, but no one I know who is willing to pay $260 for a ticket, say they would change their mind if it was $270. I know this is a simplistic way of looking at the industrys problems but sometimes things dont always have to be complicated. Its the RASM's that need to improve now, not more cost cuts. Lets salvage whats left of this profession and work for a wage that is worthy of the cost of education, the training required, and the responsibility that this profession demands.

 

[Thrust Master]

Air Wisconsin Airlines Corporation could be a
canidate, our owners were in ATL recently.

Would that be consider gossip... I da know...

Thrust Master

 

[DDpaysoff]

This is embarassing to the profession and the company. So eagle-esque it's scary.

 

[Obi-Wan]

I just talked to a friend of mine at coex and he said that Expressjet is bidding as well.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

You seem to leave out some cold hard facts too. Sure, our 777 rate is a lot higher than AA's or UA's, but we only have 8 of them. AA has more than 30 777s, and UA has close to 50 I believe. If you are lucky enough to hold the 777 at Delta, then you really must be very senior. Most guys at Delta will never hold it. Also, comparing us to AA or UA is not really accurate, since we did not lose planes on 9-11, were not affected by SARS, and did not buy a near bankrupt airline (TWA) that gave us even more debt. I think NW 747-400 Capts are paid as much as our 777 guys, and they have many more 747s, and they also have debt problems I believe. (They have not been having losing quarters lately because they are not setting up their own LCC, yet)

Delta has stated that they don't have a lot of extra money to be buying new planes (hey, they just gave away 11 of our 738 orders), and the reason they do not drop your new RJ orders is because they would have to pay large penalties. So, what I was trying to say was, "Do not fall into their tricks." I was actually trying to help. I believe they will go to somebody who has cash on them, not you guys. But, they will still ask you for cuts, and I stated, "Do not fall for their tricks...." Read it again. And, how is our MEC killing the Golden Goose? They have people looking at the books, and know exactly what Delta NEEDS, not what they want. We will help them, but not get TAKEN in the process. We know we have the most to lose, and they are watching it closely.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ProLine4]

Who can really bid for the contract?

The proposal is for 50 seaters for delivery in 2005 and 2006. The current DCI carriers and a few others (XJET, Pinnacle, Horizon, ...?) are bidding for them with proposals due in Atlanta by the middle of the month and with a decision by the end of the year.

Question for those familar with the currently non-DCI carriers (Coex, Pinnacle, heck, maybe even Mesa, etc) that are supposedly bidding for this 45 frame deal...do any of the solicited companies (aside from Wexford/Chit) even have the resources available to open up contract ops for DCI? In particular, are there available CRJ or ERJ aircraft (either existing acft or delivery slots)that would be contractually permitted to fly for a carrier other than your primary mainline partner. This may help clear up who in fact can realistically bid for this contract other than OH or EV.

This of course is irrelavent if in fact DCI attempts to screw over OH and EV by dangling the "45 jets for pay concessions" carrot. No thanks, pass on this one and just take the 15 jets a year that are coming anyways.

Regards

 

[DoinTime]

Question for those familar with the currently non-DCI carriers (Coex, Pinnacle, heck, maybe even Mesa, etc) that are supposedly bidding for this 45 frame deal...do any of the solicited companies (aside from Wexford/Chit) even have the resources available to open up contract ops for DCI? In particular, are there available CRJ or ERJ aircraft (either existing acft or delivery slots)that would be contractually permitted to fly for a carrier other than your primary mainline partner. This may help clear up who in fact can realistically bid for this contract other than OH or EV.

Per the new Pinnacle air service agreement with NW Airlines our corporate officers can begin planning and start new service agreements at any time. New service has to be operated outside of the Northwest Airlink agreement but can cross utilize routine corporate functions like IS, SOC, and training departments. Aircraft have to seat less than 60 passengers and cannot exceed 70,000 lbs. We also cannot provide service to or from NW domestic hub airports.

 

[DoinTime]

Question for those familar with the currently non-DCI carriers (Coex, Pinnacle, heck, maybe even Mesa, etc) that are supposedly bidding for this 45 frame deal...do any of the solicited companies (aside from Wexford/Chit) even have the resources available to open up contract ops for DCI? In particular, are there available CRJ or ERJ aircraft (either existing acft or delivery slots)that would be contractually permitted to fly for a carrier other than your primary mainline partner. This may help clear up who in fact can realistically bid for this contract other than OH or EV.

Per the new Pinnacle air service agreement with NW Airlines our corporate officers can begin planning and start new service agreements at any time. New service has to be operated outside of the Northwest Airlink agreement but can cross utilize routine corporate functions like IS, SOC, and training departments. Aircraft have to seat less than 60 passengers and cannot exceed 70,000 lbs. We also cannot provide service to or from NW domestic hub airports.

 

[CRJ puppy]

According to DAL, the 45 CRJ 200's are to be entered into service beginning in 2005. This in accordance with a new financing/purchase agreement between DAL and Bomabardier.

Company memos indicate that in addition to Skywest, ASA, Comair and Chautauqua that Mesa, Mesaba, ExpressJet and Pinnacle are all responding to DAL's RPF to operate these 45 aircraft.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Question for those familar with the currently non-DCI carriers (Coex, Pinnacle, heck, maybe even Mesa, etc) that are supposedly bidding for this 45 frame deal...do any of the solicited companies (aside from Wexford/Chit) even have the resources available to open up contract ops for DCI? In particular, are there available CRJ or ERJ aircraft (either existing acft or delivery slots)that would be contractually permitted to fly for a carrier other than your primary mainline partner. This may help clear up who in fact can realistically bid for this contract other than OH or EV.

Express can do any flying for any company it chooses to. There is a missunderstanding out there that continental owns the airplanes. In actuality the planes are on a sublease from CAL and as long as express pays for them they can do what ever they please. They are bidding with ERJ.

 

[Airtower]

who said they were CRJ-200's?

i was just wondering where you heard that delta is offering 45 CRJ-200's. i had just read they were offering 45 JETS, no specification. anyone care to elaborate?

 

[~~~^~~~]

And WHY is it 62% above industry standard? Are you suggesting that the Delta pilots roll over and let management have their way?

It won't be ASA or Comair unless they pay for them with paycuts.

It always amazes me how you guys who sit prostrate to the Delta pilots overlook the fact that their MEC is perfectly willing to justify pay cuts for Connection pilots who earn $20,000 a year... Restoring this profession... Whatever, ALPA is about maintaining the pay and privilege of a very few favored pilots.

I think it would be smart for Delta pilots to try to save their Company since they have much more at stake than the managers do. A Delta pilot without Delta is worth $20,000 a year. Leo Mullins without Delta was worth $16,000,000.00

The pure irony is that all the damage being done by ALPA's acquiesence to the "lowest bidder" policy will ultimately be felt by the junior Delta pilots who end up at one of these $20,000 jobs.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Interesting Aticle

Pasted this off of the ASA ALPA site. An individual found it while doing some research.

Delta to confirm CRJ200 orders
Flight International (10Jun03, 278 words)


PAUL LEWIS / WASHINGTON DC

Airline's regional operation expected to firm up delivery positions ahead of United Airlines' 50-seater decision

Delta Air Lines' regional operation Delta Connection is expected to firm up additional orders for Bombardier CRJ200s at the Paris air show. It aims to secure delivery positions for next year, ahead of United Airlines' decision on the number of 50-seaters, either on order or option, its Express regional carriers will take.

It is believed the additional aircraft will go to Atlanta-based Connection carrier Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ASA) rather than than the carrier's Cincinnati-based Comair operation, but the numbers of additional CRJ200s to which Delta will commit is unclear.

Other than 23 CRJ700s scheduled for delivery next year, Delta Connection has no regional jets on order beyond the end of this year, by which time its CRJ200 fleet will have grown to 226 aircraft.

When Delta placed its order in 2000 for 69 CRJ200s and 25 CRJ700s, it took options on another 406 aircraft for delivery by 2010, 362 of which have still to be exercised. These include 27 CRJ200s and five CRJ700 options with delivery positions in 2004, another 68 combined 50- and 70-seaters in 2005 and 63 more in 2006.

For the carrier to maintain regional growth and continue replacing ASA's remaining ATR 72s and Embraer EMB-120 Brasilias, it needs to firm up orders soon to secure deliveries in 2002. United's three United Express feeder carriers, Air Wisconsin, Atlantic Coast Airlines and Skywest, collectively still have orders, reconfirmable orders and options on a large number of 50-seaters for delivery in 2004, but are waiting on the bankruptcy-protected mainline carrier to decide on how many are needed.


Source: Flight International

A few things are intersting. One is that the author implies that the ATR's are going away with the replacement of the jets. I spoke with the ASA ATR PM on Friday and he stated that there were no plans to get rid of them at this time (before I knew of this article). Second, they state ASA as the receivers. I have to wonder about the validity of this article as the numbers for orders and deliveries is way off. So wherever he got his info from, might not be such a great source. Anyway, intersting at best. Additionally, trying to firm up deliveries now would place the build dates ahead of any competition. It would slow down Uniteds plans to increase their RJ fleet. So at least that part sounds plausible.

 

[MedFlyer]

Tim,

I wouldn't put too much stock in that article. First, it's five months old....a lot has changed in five months. Second, it talks about DL taking delivery of all these additional CRJ700's which we know can't happen under the current contract with DALPA.

The whole article is just a mathematical exercise based on DL's orginal mega-RJ order placed back in 2000. However, a lot has changed since then and I doubt DL will ever take delivery of all those CRJ's that are on option.

I think the ATR's will stick around for a while. They're far more efficient for higher volume short hops to places like MGM,AGS,CHA. Last I heard, the ATR's will stay at least until 2006.

 

[wms]

i was just wondering where you heard that delta is offering 45 CRJ-200's. i had just read they were offering 45 JETS, no specification. anyone care to elaborate?

We were told that these 45 jets are possible because of favorable financing from Bombardier.


There was a DAL pilot on a jumpseat who said he took a concession from 180k to 160k because of displacements and that we should make concessions next. He still makes 100k more than a CRJ CA and doesn't live paycheck to paycheck to live modestly.The DAL guys are all about ego, while others struggle to make ends meet. While what we could give wouldn't make a difference to the bottom line, they can have an impact on their airline. We have also had displacements. We can't afford paycuts, and won't agree to bring the bottom lower. It seems odd that the guys who complain about lowering the bottom are encouraging others to do it to save themselves.

 

[General Lee]

WMS,

If he said that on your jumpseat, I would have kicked him off. That was just dumb to say that around people who don't even make close to the same amount. When I said earlier that Delta would want paycuts from you to pay for the additional 45 RJs, I meant that Delta didn't have the extra cash right now, and you would have to pay "for them." (literally) I still think that Delta will ask you for more cuts, but then NOT give you very many of those RJs---but allow someone with the cash to buy them---like Mesa or Chataqua. Also, that guy on the jump will enjoy atleast another 15% paycut soon---and I hope he doesn't start blaming it on you....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tim47SIP]

MedFlyer

You are absolutely correct. I did not look at the date of the article. Stupid of me to not look at that. But it still is interesting as the first individuals Delta went to for additional aircraft was Comair. The only other thing that is bothering me is the silence from our MEC as the meetings were over on Thursday. We should of at least got an email letting us know what is happening. Should be an interesting couple of months. Tim.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

I wouldn't put too much stock in that article. First, it's five months old....a lot has changed in five months.

Yeah, a lot can change in five months. When do you think airlines make fleet decisions, a week, maybe two weeks in advance? Besides, if nothing else, it shows a thought process that ASA pilots should be aware of.

It also says that Delta was going to confirm orders, which is contrary to what many on this message board and on the street have been saying for a while. The General on this very thread has said this:

I meant that Delta didn't have the extra cash right now

Evidently, Delta has a means to confirm those Paris orders somehow. JMHO