250 below 10K internationally?

[Fly4$]

What does this mean in an FOM?

"Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator (or by ATC in the case of operations in Class
A airspace), no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed​

of more than 250 knots"

Is there such a thing as class A airspace below 10,000 MSL?

In most of the Netherlands class A airspace starts at 1500' MSL. Anywhere else in Europe you will find plenty below 10K. I don't know of any in the US.

 

[Poahi]

Poahi,

I don't understand why you say that. It's pretty clear cut. We don't need a violation to prove anything.

GCD,

My comment was a response to the original posters comment about violations. There are three reasons why this issue drags on:

1. The FAA is conflicted over this. The FAA controllers routinely indirectly and sometime directly ask for speeds above 250 below 10,000. There are outstanding FAA agency orders which are inconsistent with the restriction and the FAA lawyers admit this is being reviewed.

2. I don't believe the FAA has the regulatory authority to enforce this when the aircraft is in international airspace and outside 'designated' airspace.

3. ICAO Annex 2 contains no such speed restrictions.

I think you could make the case that if you are receiving ATC services, FAA regulations apply, regardless of your position. But again, it's untested.

FWIW, I wouldn't test it personally because
1. My company limits speed regardless of position
2. I don't want the heat
3. My aircraft probably couldn't handle a bird strike at 320 KIAS.

It's a philosophical question and will creep back in to the discussions here periodically.

 

[mamba20]

In many places in Europe "deleting the speed restriction below FL100" is standard practice. In fact, if you dont do and slow everyone else down you will get yelled at. This happens almost everytime I go to the UK.

 

[mamba20]

Also I believe there is a reg (though I dont know which one) that pilots are expected to conform to the rules of a foreign airport, i.e. speeds, terminology etc, etc, etc.

This is not to say that I do it on a regular basis just that it is the norm on the other side of the pond. Do what you feel is safe.

 

[Beetle007]

Also I believe there is a reg (though I dont know which one) that pilots are expected to conform to the rules of a foreign airport, i.e. speeds, terminology etc, etc, etc.
quote]

A quote from the letter of interpretation.

"Except for §§ 91.307(b), 91.309, 91.323, and 91.711, comply with this part [91] so far as it is
not inconsistent with applicable regulations of the foreign country where the aircraft is operated or annex 2 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation.·" (Emphasis added.)​

So...if a country requires you to operate above 250 kts below 10L you are OK. If you give you the option then you are not OK. They must require it. ​

 

[mlifly]

Also, the FAA NEVER removes a rule, no matter how rediculous once it has been enacted. Witness the attemp to raise the masks required limit when one crew member gets up, Raise the retirement age etc...

The FAA makes rules, they dont rescind them. Its just not in their nature.

Cheers
Wino

Actually the change to the Oxygen rule went so far as putting out a NPRM (notice of proposed rule making). However, after an NPRM is published, it is open to comments/opinions for a period of time (60 days maybe?). They received a few adverse opinions and therefore decided to rescind the NPRM. One of the key adverse opinions was from the Teamsters pilots union.

 

[Floatplane]

What does this mean in an FOM?

"Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator (or by ATC in the case of operations in Class
A airspace), no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed​

of more than 250 knots"

Is there such a thing as class A airspace below 10,000 MSL?

FOM=Flight Operations Manual!:beer:
Class A Airspace below 10K, not in the U.S.A.

If your company restricts your speed as part of the F.O.M. then you must abide by the F.O.M. or the F.A.R.'s which ever is more restrictive. This applies to both domestic and flag operations. I hope you have a better understanding of the "rules" now.

 

[Beetle007]

FOM=Flight Operations Manual!:beer:
Class A Airspace below 10K, not in the U.S.A.

If your company restricts your speed as part of the F.O.M. then you must abide by the F.O.M. or the F.A.R.'s which ever is more restrictive. This applies to both domestic and flag operations. I hope you have a better understanding of the "rules" now.

I wasn't asking what FOM meant (even though my current airline calls it a GOM).

I was asking why it implies ATC can permit speeds in excess of 250 kts below 10,000 ft when operating in class A airspace. I didn't understand how you could be below 10,000 ft MSL AND in class A airspace.

Another interesting item is that most FOMs and FARs only prohibit 250 kts below 10,000 MSL. So if I am landing at a high altitude airport, I wouldn't even be speed restricted until on short final. Seems like that violates the intent of the regulation.

 

[BombJet45]

The AIM deals with this issue

4-4-12. Speed Adjustments
i. Speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to U.S. registered aircraft operating beyond 12 nautical miles from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL. However, in airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport, or in a VFR corridor designated through such as a Class B airspace area, pilots are expected to comply with the 200 knot speed limit specified in 14 CFR Section 91.117(c)

 

[atldc9]

The feds flip-flopped on this after the original interpretation shown in this thread. The most recent interpretation is this:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/interpretations/data/interps/2008/Clark.pdf

U.S.Department
of Transportatton
Federal Aviation
Administration
JUL 2 4 2008
Mr. Steve Clark
2003 E. La Vieve Lane
Tempe, AZ 85284
Dear Mr. Clark:
Office of the Chief Counsel 800 Independence Ave., S.w.
Washington, D.C. 20591
This is in reference to your email request of March 5,2008, for interpretation of the recent
amendment to § 91.703 of Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Operations of
civil aircraft of U.S. registry outside of the United States.]
The FAA amended § 9L703(a)(3) to correct an unintended error that occurred during the
1990 recodification of Part 91, General Air Traffic and Operating Rules. As amended
Paragraph (a)(3) excludes the application ofthe speed restrictions in § 91.117(ai to U.S.
registered aircraft operating outside the U.S., unless otherWise required by regulation ofthe
foreign country in which the aircraft is operated or Annex 2 ofICAO.
You refer to the statement in Annex 2, Foreword, Applicability, which states that "The
Standards in this document, together with the Standard and Recommended Practices of
Annex 11, govern the application of the 'Procedures for Air Navigation Services-Rules of
the Air and Air Traffic Services' and the 'Regional Supplementary Procedures-· Rules of
the Air and Air Traffic Services', in which latter document will be found subsidiary
procedures of regional application." Specifically, you question whether this reference to
Annex 11 incorporates Appendix 4 of Annex 11 "ATS Airspace Classes-Service provided
and flight Requirements" into Annex 2.
In keeping with U.S. obligations under the Convention on International Civil Aviation, it is
FAA policy to comply with International Civil Aviation Organization (lCAO) Standard and
Recommended Practices to the maximum extent practicable. While the ICAO Standards
and Practices recommended in Annex 2, Rules of the Airfare applicable to pilots, the ICAO
provisions in Annex 11 are applicable to air traffic service providers. With respect to U.S.
designated airspace (domestic or offshore airspace) and as the service provider, it is the
FAA's determination-whether tDapply theIGAO·standard-insectien c2~6~1-,-2.6.2and 2.63 of
Annex 11.3 As stated in the preamble to the final rule correcting § 91.703(a)(3), the speed
I See Final Rule, Operation of Civil Aircraft of U.S. Registry Outside of the United States, 73 Fed. Reg. 10140;
February 26, 2008.
2 Paragraph (a) of § 91.117 provides that "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may
operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots."
3 Section 2.6.1 provides that ATS airspace shall be classified and designed in accordance with the section and
specifies the types of flights for Class A through G designated airspace. Section 2.6.2 provides that States shall
2
restriction in § 91.117(a) historically has not been applied to persons operating U.S.
registered civil aircraft in international airspace controlled by the FAA. This final rule
restored the regulatory text to continue that policy. Therefore, U.S. registered aircraft and
foreign registered aircraft are not subject to a speed restriction of 250 knots when operating
below 10,000 feet AMSL when operating outside the territorial boundaries of the U.S. but in
designated airspace under U.S. control.
I hope this information responds to your request.
Sincerely,
~~~rd ~
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division, AGC-200

 

[Colonel Savage]

I was asking why it implies ATC can permit speeds in excess of 250 kts below 10,000 ft when operating in class A airspace. I didn't understand how you could be below 10,000 ft MSL AND in class A airspace...

It would be hard to do, considering that Class A is the old Positive Control Airspace from FL 180 to FL 600. Could it be a misprint in your GOM, like the reference to "10,000 knots" in the letter from "Rebecca" that started this thread? They do happen.

 

[AC560]

I was asking why it implies ATC can permit speeds in excess of 250 kts below 10,000 ft when operating in class A airspace. I didn't understand how you could be below 10,000 ft MSL AND in class A airspace.

Because many countries have class A airspace below 10,000 ft. Good portions of the UK for example are class A from 3,000 ft MSL on up.

 

[joe_pilot]

The short answer is Bird Strikes. Hitting a bird at 300 kts vs 250 kts will resule in 44% greater impact forces.

Where do you get those figures? Could be wrong here, but it sounds like a simple F=MA calculation. It should only be a 25% increase 300 vs 250 kts = 25% difference.

Again, maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Floatplane]

I wasn't asking what FOM meant (even though my current airline calls it a GOM).

I was asking why it implies ATC can permit speeds in excess of 250 kts below 10,000 ft when operating in class A airspace. I didn't understand how you could be below 10,000 ft MSL AND in class A airspace.

Another interesting item is that most FOMs and FARs only prohibit 250 kts below 10,000 MSL. So if I am landing at a high altitude airport, I wouldn't even be speed restricted until on short final. Seems like that violates the intent of the regulation.

I think you mean AGL not MSL! I hope you know the difference.

Many countries have Class A airspace below 10,000' MSL. However, I do not know of any in the U.S.

 

[Singlecoil]

Where do you get those figures? Could be wrong here, but it sounds like a simple F=MA calculation. It should only be a 25% increase 300 vs 250 kts = 25% difference.

Again, maybe I'm missing something.

I can't comment on the accuracy of the statistic, but kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity, not linearly as you suggest.

The 250 knots below ten rule came out of the Cerritos accident, didn't it? The one where the Cessna collided with the passenger jet over LA?

 

[Beetle007]

Many countries have Class A airspace below 10,000' MSL. However, I do not know of any in the U.S.

That was my original question. Can you name a location that has Class A airspace below 10,000?

Also for a different poster Force=Mass*Acceleration where acceleration units are (m/s)^2.

 

[Floatplane]

That was my original question. Can you name a location that has Class A airspace below 10,000?

Also for a different poster Force=Mass*Acceleration where acceleration units are (m/s)^2.

Try reading page 2 of this thread! LOL

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Why operationally over 250?
It also might be a small jet, that isn't safe to fly slow. The Air Force T-38 standard visual traffic pattern speed was 300 kts-VERY small wings and not much lift without LOTS of airflow.

I was at about 650 kts once, at about 4,000' or so, near Ft. Walton Beach (my instructor pointed out that it was probably a little fast-I had gotten so used to the high speeds that I hadn't noticed).

Why fly over 250?
I've had the controllers at least twice tell me to go faster. Once the guy screamed at me on the radio to increase my descent and not worry about my airspeed, and the other I was level at about 6,500', and the guy told me to "...speed 280 knots NOW".

I would guess both were probably traffic conflicts? I didn't argue or ask, I just did what they told me to.

A little more...
f=m*a (force = mass x acceleration). When you multiply, it does not "add up" linearly, it goes up, exponentially? Anyway, it goes up more than linearly.
Lets try it:
250 x 85,000 = 21,250,000
300 x 85,000 = 25,500,000
So, we increase the speed by 50 kts, or 20%.
The Energy increased by 4,250,000, or 20%???

Obviously, that math example sucked (I had one physics and chemistry class in HS, and one math class in college). I KNOW that force doesn't increase linearly.

Maybe someone here, who is better than I am at math/science can give us an accurate example/explaination!

cliff
GRB

 

[Singlecoil]

From wikipedia:

Kinetic energy of rigid bodies

In classical mechanics, the kinetic energy of a "point object" (a body so small that its size can be ignored), or a non-rotating rigid body, is given by the equation

where m is the mass and v is the speed of the body. In SI units (used for most modern scientific work), mass is measured in kilograms, speed in metres per second, and the resulting kinetic energy is in joules.
For example, one would calculate the kinetic energy of an 80 kg mass traveling at 18 meters per second (40 mph) as

Note that the kinetic energy increases with the square of the speed. This means, for example, that an object traveling twice as fast will have four times as much kinetic energy. As a result of this, a car traveling twice as fast requires four times as much distance to stop (assuming a constant braking force. See mechanical work).


So, for your example converted to kilograms and meters per second:
250 knots = 128.61 meters per second
300 knots = 154.33 meters per second
85,000 = 38555.35 kilograms


Ke for the 250 knot scenario is 318863002.15 joules
Ke for the 300 knot scenario is 459150822.53 joules


So for the 20% increase in speed, Ke increased about 44% which is not 40% probably due to rounding errors. ...or maybe it's the beer...

 

[filejw]

In many places in Europe "deleting the speed restriction below FL100" is standard practice. In fact, if you dont do and slow everyone else down you will get yelled at. This happens almost everytime I go to the UK.

Or AMS..