250 below 10000

[kevdog]

It's kind of funny you mention that. It was a couple of months ago and we were all in line for 21L at DTW... Approach was slowing everyone to 160. An ERJ apparently wasn't slowing and the controller queried the pilots. They said they needed to maintain 190 in icing conditions. The controller pulling them out of line and proceeded to give them a lashing for not speaking up earlier...

I didn't think approach was able to give speed restrictions below 170.

 

[Fury220]

I think the confusion in this thread is about WHO can waiver the 250 below 10k restriction. As quoted, it's the Administrator...not ATC itself.

Also, to the original poster: You were doing 265KIAS? There's a good chance that your ground speed (as depictd on the controller's scope) was <250KTAS. In this case, the controller had no idea that they were requesting you to "violate an FAR."

 

[LearLove]

I think the confusion in this thread is about WHO can waiver the 250 below 10k restriction. As quoted, it's the Administrator...not ATC itself.

Also, to the original poster: You were doing 265KIAS? There's a good chance that your ground speed (as depictd on the controller's scope) was <250KTAS. In this case, the controller had no idea that they were requesting you to "violate an FAR."

I'm not a betting man but if I were I'd bet that Fury is correct.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Dude, sorry but your stepping on your own crank on this one. Biggest myth in aviation is that there is a speed limit in Class B. For example, if you take off out of Dallas or Denver and your are still in Class B at or above 10,000 feet, you may accelerate above 250. The rules above apply for areas outside and below the lateral limits of the Class B, not in it.

If you read your own statement you can clearly see you don't know what you're talking about. There is no restriction at or above 10,000 ft, anywhere. 91.117 applies anywhere else.

I hope you're not a captain in a multi crew airplane because your hanging your partner out on this one.

 

[JungleJetCA]

ATC does not have the authority to waive the 250 below 10. They can however waive speed restrictions in class B&C.

Also IAH has a program (not sure if it is still going on) that authorizes ATC/Aircraft to operate up to 300 knots in the IAH class B.

Okay, you guys. There were at least two posts in which someone wrote that there is a speed limitation in Class B. There is not. The speed rule is 250 knots below 10,000. This is everywhere. And it's this rule that was waived in IAH, not some fictional Class B speed restriction. If you are in Class B at 11,000 feet, there is no speed restriction. I've flown with guys who do not speed up at or above 10K in Class B because they are under the impression that Class B has a speed restriction. Maybe back in the TCA days but since they gone to calling it Class B, the 250 at 10 is not associated with Class B.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

I didn't think approach was able to give speed restrictions below 170.

Don't know if that's a hard fast rule, but I've been told to slow to 150 as far as 10 miles from the airport... Just configure alittle early... But we're routinely slowed to around the 160-170 range all the time in DTW...

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Okay, you guys. There were at least two posts in which someone wrote that there is a speed limitation in Class B. There is not. The speed rule is 250 knots below 10,000. This is everywhere. And it's this rule that was waived in IAH, not some fictional Class B speed restriction. If you are in Class B at 11,000 feet, there is no speed restriction. I've flown with guys who do not speed up at or above 10K in Class B because they are under the impression that Class B has a speed restriction. Maybe back in the TCA days but since they gone to calling it Class B, the 250 at 10 is not associated with Class B.

Well I may be wrong, but I think the NOTAM for the IAH program stated "while within the Intercontinental Class B". Again, I could be wrong as it has been a while since I read it/seen it.

There is no speed limitation in class B, you are 100% correct, there is the limit below 10K and that is what the OP was asking about before this got all twisted up into a class B argument.

 

[HS125]

Don't know if that's a hard fast rule, but I've been told to slow to 150 as far as 10 miles from the airport... Just configure alittle early... But we're routinely slowed to around the 160-170 range all the time in DTW...

d. When ATC assigns speed adjustments, it will be in accordance with the following recommended minimums:

1. To aircraft operating between FL 280 and 10,000 feet, a speed not less than 250 knots or the equivalent Mach number.
NOTE-
1. On a standard day the Mach numbers equivalent to 250 knots CAS (subject to minor variations) are:
FL 240-0.6
FL 250-0.61
FL 260-0.62
FL 270-0.64
FL 280-0.65
FL 290-0.66.

2. When an operational advantage will be realized, speeds lower than the recommended minima may be applied.

2. To arriving turbojet aircraft operating below 10,000 feet:


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(a) A speed not less than 210 knots, except;
(b) Within 20 flying miles of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 170 knots.

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3. To arriving reciprocating engine or turboprop aircraft within 20 flying miles of the runway threshold of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 150 knots.
4. To departing aircraft:

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(a) Turbojet aircraft, a speed not less than 230 knots.
(b) Reciprocating engine aircraft, a speed not less than
150 knots.

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e. When ATC combines a speed adjustment with a descent clearance, the sequence of delivery, with the word "then" between, indicates the expected order of execution.​

​

 

[JungleJetCA]

Well I may be wrong, but I think the NOTAM for the IAH program stated "while within the Intercontinental Class B". Again, I could be wrong as it has been a while since I read it/seen it.

There is no speed limitation in class B, you are 100% correct, there is the limit below 10K and that is what the OP was asking about before this got all twisted up into a class B argument.

I don't remember the exact verbage but I believe you are correct also in that the Notam used the IAH Class B as the limit to the waiver of the below 10/250 rule. The IAH Class B was just the area where this waiver was approved.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

I don't remember the exact verbage but I believe you are correct also in that the Notam used the IAH Class B as the limit to the waiver of the below 10/250 rule. The IAH Class B was just the area where this waiver was approved.

Yeah, it just seems logical to define an "area" that would be under some kind of ATC control since it was a "test".

Thanks for bringing up the no defined speed limit within class B, I had always read the reg as the 250 being a speed limit designated within the B, not the way it was discussed here. Learn something new every day!