2400 nm range

[BigMike]

So pu$$ys fly Jetstars?......I thought they flew Legacys?

Quote of the month! Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

 

[con-pilot]

What's a Jetstar?

Wa shoot, you don't know what a Lockheed JetStar is, where ya been all yer life anyway?

Well, I reckon I'lls be a tellin' ya. First off it were the very first private/corporate/bizzy jet. Nows I gots to admit that them Frenchies done come out with this dinky little four place itty bitty four place jet first, that couldn't get out of its own way, but first and foremost, it was a foggy jet and didin' count nohow. Now where were I, oh yes, that good old boy Kelly Johnson, wut worked fer Lockheed, done figured that our good patree, err, paterotic, hmm, aw hell, 'Merican rich good ol' boys needed a really nice 'Merican jet to run around in, so he done designed and made the first JetStar during a lunch break one day.

Now this here first JetStar, wot he done made durin' one of his's lunch breaks, was a right real purddy little thang. Had a cute pointy nose, lots o' winders on the cockypit, real nifty sleek sweptback wings that had these little fuel tanks a glued to the bottom of dem wings. On the bit in the back there were these two Limy jet engines, one on each side of de big tube that the passengers were sat in. Now the tail, let me tell ya, it t-was a big sucker and the whole thang went up and down, up and down, the whole thing I tells ya. Man that was weird man, weird.

Anyways didn' take long to figure out that them there Limy jet engines didn' make enough of that thrust stuff that ya needed really, really bad to get that ground lovin' SOB offin' the ground afor ya done run out of concrete. So Kelly calls ups them good ol' Merican boys, Mr. Pratt and Mr. Whitney ta see ifin' they gots a jet engine wot could get this ground lovin' SOB offin' the ground afor ya done runs out of concrete. By gum golly, day sure nuf did, de JT-12-6. But that Kelly feller, he's pretty dern smart and he done figures out that he's agoin' to need fer of them suckers on that ground lovin' SOB. So he done and went and stuck two of them there JT-12-6 injines on each side of that big ol' tube wut carried dem floks a flyin' in de plane.

Shownuf that dare worked, but Mr. Kelly, being a smart fella when it comes to smarts done figured out that he gots ta stick some more fuel on that gound lovin' SOB somewhare. He done thought about stickin' some mo fuel in dat big tube, wot carries de folks wut rides in it, but den he thinks, "How's about makin' dem there cute little slipper tanks, wot I guled to de bottum of de wing bigger?" Wa sure nuf, dat worked.

So din dare be de JetStar-6. Well, sure nuf, that still wern't nuf power to get that ground lovin SOB offin the ground, or get it up that high in sky neither. So Mr. Kelly, he a calls Mr. Pratt and Mr. Whiteny back to see's infin' da gots some enjines wit more of dat thrust stuff. Shownuf, da did, dat enjin be called de JT-12-8. Dis -8 motor done did purtty good fe a long time, but den dat jet gas got kinda high, over a nickle a gallon. Now dat Mr. Kelly feller wasn't a messin' wit no JetStar, he be working on some new secret airchine. So some other feller, I don't knows hes name, goes out a sticks some of Dem new fancy high by-passin' jet enjins on de back of de tube wut the passegers ride in. Still had to use fer of dem though. So that there was a called the JetStar 731. Wall now some fellers, friends of Mr. Kelly I reckon figured ifin it was a goodin nuf fer dis other guy, it were good nuf fer Lockheed and the JetStar II come.

An ya know wot, it still be a ground lovin' SOB.


Are you not sorry you took offense to the fact that I forgot to capitalize the 'S' in the word JetStar now?

 

[LegacyDriver]

If the Falcon 50 has "low DOCs," then so does the Legacy. If it doesn't, then neither does the Legacy. C&D has them within $50/hour of each other.

Throw me another logical fallacy. Are you daft?

If a Cessna 152 has the same cost per hour as a C-5 Galaxy then ONE of them has a high DOC and one has a LOW DOC. That the Embraer is like ten times the size of the 50EX for the same fuel burn means the LEGACY is more efficient. It's really simple you know.

You say that the Legacy doesn't break, etc. If that's so, why do you harp on the fact that it has a good MEL? BTW -- in the last seven years, I think that I've had to MEL something once. The number of times that I couldn't MEL something? Once as well. It was due to a failed starter/generator, and delayed us all of two hours.

Because it has to break REALLY flippin' bad to get stuck. The MEL is great so even if it breaks I can go.

Cabin size -- For comparison, let's stick to the large cabin Falcons. The cabins of the 900EX, 7X, and Legacy are all within 150 cubic feet of each other.

Affordability -- Mid 2000's Legacy's are going for the very low $10m range, or below. So as far as acquisition cost, yes, the Legacy wins. That said, the DOC's of each aircraft are within $150 of each other, so I'd have to say that as far as operating the aircraft, it's a draw.

Then the Legacy isn't such a POS after all.

Redundancy, I cannot say much about, as I am not familiar enough with the redundancy offered by the Legacy. They're all Part 25 aircraft, so to a certain extent, the redundancy has to be similar.

Not even close. The EMB equipment list beats anything out there. It is built like a tank and has redundancy coming out of its ears. There are plenty of Part 25 airplanes that don't have the redundancy of the EMB. You used to fly one in fact.

Reliability -- You talk like corporate jets break all the time. The reality is, they don't. In my career, I've had one aircraft break that resulted in an extra night stay. Fact of the matter is, just this week I saw a Legacy be AOG with a flap problem. The airplane that used to be based in the hangar next door was broken at least three times that I know of. Using those stats, and the dispatch reliability numbers published, the Legacy is less reliable than other corporate jets, not more.

Again, your "stats" are parroted off an article by Clay Lacy from years back. They are not the actual numbers.

(BTW, the Falcon 7X has a whopping 99.7% rate. I also enjoyed the BCA article this month that mentioned the survey results on the 7X: crappy brakes, wimpy rudder, and horrible nose steering. ROTFLMFAO!)

I checked with my sources on your alleged broken EMBs. They tell me you have bad info. Just like that crew that told you they were weight limited out of Carlsbad. They weren't.

Again, corporate aircraft don't break the way that you claim that they do. Regional aircraft, airline aircraft, etc. that's a different story. I think I've rode the airlines about ten times in the last five years. Of those times, I've had two delays that I can recall due to a mechanical issue. In that same period, I've had zero delays while on corporate aircraft. These stats don't support your statements indicating that corporate jets are unreliable.

Well I've seen them break. They break a lot if you use them hard. The Legacy doesn't.

LD, the reality is, you have a limited amount of corporate experience, and most of it being in very mediocre to below average jobs (opinion based on how you've described them; I have no personal knowledge of any companies that you've worked for). You have formulated opinions based on your limited, mediocre jobs that simply are not in line with reality. To me, your love for the Legacy is bizarre. The only thing that I can think of is that you simply don't know better...

You have no idea my experience. You don't know all the different places I've worked as a contract pilot in the Corporate side. And unlike you, I've flown planes built by your manufacturer (and flown even the same type in some cases). You've never flown mine. So I would say the one who doesn't know better is you.

You're biased and speak from an uninformed position.

All you have to do is look at the wheel well (or even the DV window handle for that matter) on an EMB to realize you are not dealing with a tinkertoy. It is a beefy, solid, well-built tank of an airplane. Anyone who has flown one for any length of time knows it.

 

[LegacyDriver]

This argument of my aircraft is better than yours, is not only not realistic, it is not logical as well.

The best aircraft is the one that provides the highest salary and the best QOL.

Rather simple really.

I hear what you are saying, but I just don't subscribe to that.

I'd take an airplane that pays less (to a point, of course) if it makes my job easier. Quality of life beats money.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I didn't think we were talking pay, but were talking aircraft performance?

But in reality performance tends to go along with the cost of the aircraft?....more expensive usually happen to pay better?....and often better QOL?

"Usually."

But I made more as a charter Legacy Captain than my buddy flying the 900EASy as Captain for a non-Death Star mega-corporation. And my QOL made his look lame by comparison. Unless you consider 14 days in a row away from home QOL. I never did.

Pay is based on a lot of factors. The fact of the matter is when you are dealing with airplanes that cost from ten to fifty MILLION dollars....pilot salaries even at 150K a year are not that big a deal comparatively speaking. The difference between 90K and 150K is even smaller...

 

[BoilerUP]

LD...brother...this thread had been silent for two weeks.

Walk away...let it go.

 

[Kingairrick]

Off your meds again?

 

[con-pilot]

Off your meds again?

Must be, I really thought I closed this thing out with my 'good ol' boy' JetStar story. Guess not.

Then he bascially says, "I'd rather fly a Legacy for crap wages than any other aircraft." He also seems to believe that the type of aircraft dictates his QOL. I guess he wants to live in one.

Well, what can I say. He's got it bad.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"Usually."

But I made more as a charter Legacy Captain than my buddy flying the 900EASy as Captain for a non-Death Star mega-corporation. And my QOL made his look lame by comparison. Unless you consider 14 days in a row away from home QOL. I never did.

I always tell my kids to never compare themselves to the dumbest kids in class.....this does NOT make you smart, not in the least.

They picked up on this concept pretty well by 2nd grade.

No pilot left behind.

 

[spxdriver]

If a Cessna 152 has the same cost per hour as a C-5 Galaxy then ONE of them has a high DOC and one has a LOW DOC.

No, actually it doesn't. That means that they have the same DOC. Neither is high or low compared to the other.

That the Embraer is like ten times the size of the 50EX for the same fuel burn means the LEGACY is more efficient. It's really simple you know.

We were talking about the DOC of the Legacy vs. Falcon 50. How did we get to talking about fuel efficiency?

The Legacy uses more than 2/3 of the fuel a Falcon 50 does, yet the Legacy has one less engine. So I suppose you could argue that the Legacy is less efficient than the Falcon. All depends how you define efficiency. Both arguments are equally invalid when comparing these two airplanes, because they're totally different airplanes. It's difficult to gauge efficiency, when comparing two airplanes, but easier to compare DOC's.

Furthermore, if we compare the DOC of the Legacy versus something else, it's important to compute the DOC for an entire trip, rather than take the narrow view of hourly DOC. In other words, the DOC on a Falcon may be higher, but since it's 20-25 minutes, at a minimum, faster than the Legacy, it will likely end up with a lower trip cost.

Because it has to break REALLY flippin' bad to get stuck. The MEL is great so even if it breaks I can go.

That's the case in everything that I have flown that has an MEL.

Then the Legacy isn't such a POS after all.

You claim that the Legacy isn't a POS because the DOC for it is within $150 of a Falcon 2000? I fail to see how DOC compared to another aircraft determines whether it's a POS or not.

But, since you brought it up, yes it is a POS.

Not even close. The EMB equipment list beats anything out there.

Keep in mind, we are talking about an airplane that originally didn't even have door locks, until Embraer was told that it needed them. Sure doesn't SOUND like it beats anything out there?

The Legacy interior comes with two DVDs, two LCD cabin displays, a moving map system and Iridium satellite telephone. Using that example, sure doesn't sound like it beats anything else out there..

It is built like a tank and has redundancy coming out of its ears. There are plenty of Part 25 airplanes that don't have the redundancy of the EMB. You used to fly one in fact.

It's difficult and not really fair to compare an early 2000's Legacy with a mid-80's Astra, and then say that they don't have equivalent redundancy.

Maybe the Legacy has all the redundancy that you claim that it has because it needs it? Maybe the parts break often? And, assuming the Legacy truly does have more redundancy, perhaps other corporate jets don't need as much redundancy because they break less often?

Again, your "stats" are parroted off an article by Clay Lacy from years back. They are not the actual numbers.

No, they are not coming from an article by Clay Lacy. They are from C&D. You're right, probably not actual numbers, since they didn't come from you.

(BTW, the Falcon 7X has a whopping 99.7% rate. I also enjoyed the BCA article this month that mentioned the survey results on the 7X: crappy brakes, wimpy rudder, and horrible nose steering. ROTFLMFAO!)

I don't know much about the 7X, but I do know that Dassault has new brakes for the fleet that are being installed, or have been installed already. Horrible nose wheel steering, I do not know anything about. Wimpy rudder is probably not such an issue for anybody that actually knows how to land in a crosswind. But, if you struggle with crosswinds, like yourself, then a larger rudder may have been a good idea for the aircraft.

I checked with my sources on your alleged broken EMBs. They tell me you have bad info. Just like that crew that told you they were weight limited out of Carlsbad. They weren't.

Yeah, I am sure that the mechanics who work on the airplane gave me bad info.

The crew that was weight limited was in fact weight limited. As I mentioned to you, I seem to recall that their paperwork showed them within 100 lbs of max weight for the runway. Furthermore, you didn't even need to see the paperwork, if you saw the airplane takeoff. It used every inch of the runway, so much so that at least three people who were near the parallel taxiway actually turned their heads to watch when the airplane was well beyond the point that aircraft typically rotate.

We have a G200 based next door. It regularly does a flight of about an hour stage length. It uses significantly less runway to do that flight than the Legacy did that day. That should tell you everything you need to know, as a G200 isn't exactly a short field airplane. LOL.

You have no idea my experience. You don't know all the different places I've worked as a contract pilot in the Corporate side. And unlike you, I've flown planes built by your manufacturer (and flown even the same type in some cases). You've never flown mine. So I would say the one who doesn't know better is you.

Actually, I do know your experience. I have your resume.
The fact is, you have a DA-50, and EMB-145 PIC type, and a CE-650 SIC type. Maybe an IA-1125 type, but not sure if you're flying PIC in that, or whether you got SIC typed.