23 more 717s for Airtran

[corky]

AirTran Airways Increases Boeing 717 Fleet by 23 Airplanes
SEATTLE, Oct. 23, 2002 - AirTran Airways has signed an agreement with Boeing Capital Corporation to lease 23 additional 717-200 jetliners. All the airplanes are scheduled to be delivered by Boeing in 2003.

"The 717's durable design and advanced technology combine to make it an exceptionally efficient aircraft to fly," said Joe Leonard, chairman and CEO of AirTran Airways. "With its greater operating efficiencies, excellent reliability and overwhelming passenger acceptance, the 717 plays a key role in keeping costs low at AirTran Airways."

From its hub at Hartsfield Atlanta International Airport, AirTran Airways provides 388 daily flights to 40 cities throughout the eastern United States. The low-cost carrier was the launch customer of the 717 and is the largest operator of the airplane. AirTran Airways has received 46 of the modern twinjets to date and, by the end of 2003, will have one of the youngest fleets in the world.

AirTran Airways' 717s are configured to carry 117 passengers in big jet comfort. The 717 is the world's best-selling airplane in its class, with the most orders of any new airplane in the 100-seat market. The 717 is built especially for low-cost and reliable short-haul, high-frequency service.

Boeing Capital Corporation is a global, full-service provider of financial solutions. An indirect wholly owned subsidiary of The Boeing Company, it offers asset-backed lending and leasing, concentrating on assets that are critical to the core operations of its customers

 

[DoinTime]

Were these TWA's old 717s?

 

[corky]

all but 1

 

[General Lee]

Good. I am glad for the Airtran guys/girls----they have always been nice to me when jumpseating into and out of ATL. Maybe this will also give Delta the needed bump to get that LCC going.
We definately need to get that LCC up and running and try to get a portion of those passengers that want low fares and less restrictions. About the 717's-----I wonder if there will be enough room for them in the C concourse? (Are they replacing the DC-9's
with them? Will there be some extra planes after the DC-9's are gone?) Regardless, this is good for both airlines-----Airtran for expansion and Delta for the needed kick in the Arse. Delta will have to learn that they need to keep up with Airtran in semi-expansion mode and just cut some costs. Airtran will have frequency and quality product, and Delta will have to match it.
The only major thing that Delta could have over Airtran when they get the LCC going is that miles on the LCC could earn them free trips to Hawaii, Europe, or anywhere the Skyteam goes---and that might be what helps in the end.


Bye Bye----Gneral Lee

 

[corky]

All DC-9s will be retired by next year. Airtran even made 1.2 million profit this quarter.

Delta has been at Boeing looking at the 717 recently.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Delta looks at everything. We all like to look at airplanes and would it not be nice if the manufacturers would let us fly them and buy us dinner to boot?

A 100 seat jet does not work in ATL due to space contraints. Three CRJ's fit at one gate, while only one CRJ900, A318, B737-600, or 717 can fit into a gate.

If you work the numbers the natural dividing line for Delta in ATL is 70 seats and 150 seats (according to DAL management). That is the cross over point where the extra ground handling costs are outweighed by the lower CASM. The 717 also lacks the range and speed that the CRJ700 has, making it a poor MD88 / MD90 replacement. (Which must be replaced since they are slated to be gone by 2010)

The B717 is a great replacement for the B737-200 and the DC-9. If it could go higher, it might go further, but the 717 was never designed to replace MD88's.

Airtran has a CRJ200 route structure with much lower CASM and lower RASM potential. It is a different model that Delta can not compete with on a one for one basis. For Delta to compete with Airtran and Southwest they must do something different - hence the 757's at Express and fat CRJ order book.

I am loving my AAI stock again. Any news on hiring over there?

 

[DCitrus9]

Latest rumor: one class of 12 in Dec, 200 for 2003 with a class of approx 12 every three weeks. All 717 FO. Interviewing to be in full swing soon...

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

I keep telling you, because of the space restraints at ATL, the 100 seaters would be used at our other hubs, like CVG (with the A concourse wide open), DFW (757's are going to be gone--so more room) and SLC (B Concourse has 5 or 6 open gates never used). Just because ATL is our mega hub, doesn't mean we can't build up our other hubs. Where do you think the 737-200's are going? Yep, CVG----not ATL. ATL will continue to get MD-88's and bigger, and ofcourse the 70 and 50 seaters.

Bye Bye-----General Lee

 

[Ty Webb]

The 717 also lacks the range and speed that the CRJ700 has, making it a poor MD88 / MD90 replacement. (Which must be replaced since they are slated to be gone by 2010)

What are the numbers for the CRJ700? I find it hard to believe that it has any speed or range advantage over the B717- certainly not on a 1.5 to 3 hour flight. . . . Exactly how far does the CRJ700 go with full pax/bags? And how many pax want to sit on an RJ in excess of three hours?

The B717 has some other advantages- it also has Business Class- so it not only has 47 more seats to sell, but 12 of them can be sold at a premium (or given to weary piloty types).

Don't forget that the ex-TWA birds have the aux tanks installed, too.

 

[~~~^~~~]

... the 100 seaters would be used at our other hubs, like CVG (with the A concourse wide open), DFW and SLC. Just because ATL is our mega hub, doesn't mean we can't build up our other hubs. Where do you think the 737-200's are going? Yep, CVG----not ATL. ATL will continue to get MD-88's and bigger, and ofcourse the 70 and 50 seaters.

Bye Bye-----General Lee

We were told Delta wants to reduce fleet types to reduce training costs, reduce maintenance and operational costs, as well as improve staff productivity. The "dream" involves three types (737/757&767/777) and possibly have the 767 replace the 777. Every public announcement thus far has verfified the fleet rationalization plan.

Adding a new type with similar capabilities to an RJ in order to supplement operations at unprofitable hubs does not sound like a pragmatic decision (my humble opinion) and it does not fit with the known information. Delta has announced their plan to phase out the MD fleet by 2010, not add more of them.

Regarding the question about aircraft capabilities, Delta's marketing gurus provide the basis for their planning as:

B737-200
Speed 495 MPH
Range 1,820

MD 88
Speed 509 MPH
Range 1,740

CRJ700
Speed 544 MPH
Range 1,939 / 2,284 (ER)

B717 (from Airtran's Site)
Speed 507 MPH
Range 1,647

TY:

I'm not writing anything bad about the 717, it is a fine airplane and I would love to fly it. For Pax, Business is much nicer, but in the back, I would rather fly the RJ. Regardless, the B717 not fit into Delta's fleet strategy - it does great for Airtran.

So far, Airtran has been unable to compete head to head with ASA / Delta - Toledo and several other cities come to mind. A lot of this has to do with the Delta Connection - the ability to feed into a long range route structure. Airtran may develop that capability someday, but for now, ASA does better over similar routes than Airtran does with a B717. Eventually, Airtran is going to have to either get a centrally located hub, or get a longer legged airplane to expand their route structure.

Since Delta can not beat Airtran by using Airtran's strategy due to their cost structure, Delta must do something different. That means 757's on more populous routes and use the RJ's to beat the 717's on frequency, load factor and trip costs when ever they can.

 

[DougCorp-9]

Dcitrus9

Actually there is a class of 14 starting on Oct 30th.

Last class had 14 on Oct 12th. Interviewing is starting again.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

RJ vs. LJ?

I just commuted on a NWA -9, previously I was on a Pinnacle CRJ-200. The RJ had a lot more room in it's seat than the coach -9, so I would rather fly the RJ, especially if it was a long flight. If I remember correctly, the 717 in coach has a lot more room than the -9 (it was a TWA 717).

Cliff
GRB

 

[DCitrus9]

Dougcorp9, Those classes are already filled. I assumed he was asking about future hiring and possible class dates.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

I can understand your enthusiasm for the CRJ70----it really is a nice plane. That's good. Ok, now when it comes to the 100 seater, well, as I told you before a Crew Planner at Delta--not ASA, was just quoted as saying "We would love a 100 seater, need it now." Ok, so I understand that Delta would like to simplify the fleet to 3 or 4 types total----that makes sense. But, the 737-200 (which is slower at cruise than your CRJ, but can climb a heck of a lot faster----atleast 300 kts all the way up to cruise, where your CRJ-200 (I don't know about the 70 seater) can barely climb at 250 kts) will eventually be retired---and something will replace it. Well, if it is over 70 seats---guess what?
We fly it. Yup. So, I can assume that with this depressed market, Delta will eventually announce an order for something like a 90 seat RJ (Maybe the CRJ version, maybe the EMB??) and those will be flown by Mainline guys/gals, and probably build up the outer hubs first----something Fred Reid said awhile ago.
There will not be a gap between the CRJ70 and the MD88. Something will fit in there, and it will be flown by us.

Bye Bye------General Lee

 

[Jetsnake]

I just bid ATL, and know I'll be a line
holder for there new JET Connect sevice.

As long as we can make $ for them and
vis versa, who gives a Sh!t.

It's gotta be better service then UAL.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't know what numbers our Company web site is using (probably LRC) but I generally see 303 indicated in the climb, and typical cruise is around 450-460 KTAS, or Mach .775

We do MSP-MCO and other three-hour-plus flights already, and, like I said, I don;t know too many people lining up to do more than 3 hrs in an RJ. As for the comfort level- to me, there is no comparison. The B717 is much quieter, when the gear cycles it doesn't sound like the spar just cracked, the overhead baggage compartments are cavernous, and I would much rather have full service from three F/A's than one poor F/A who seem to only hand out bottles of water, at least on the short flights I've been aboard.

I don't think you can say that Delta (or ASA) is competing against us- after all, we're making money, and they're losing $300 million plus per quarter.

TW

 

[~~~^~~~]

as I told you before a Crew Planner at Delta--not ASA, was just quoted as saying "We would love a 100 seater, need it now."

Your Crew Planning source is not wrong - I'm sure he would like a 100 seat jet. It is just that the VP of Finance, who actually negotiates and signs the deals says that the numbers don't work.

However, I have every expectation that your MEC will try to negotiate our 70 seat jets. Already, your MEC has announced intentions (via your VARS) to negotiate special employment rights for Delta pilots at ASA and Comair. They did this without bothering to talk to our MEC's, or our "Companies'" management. Candidly, I'm tired of ALPA claiming that we are three companies and ASA pilots can not negotiate with Delta, but at the same time your MEC can saunter right over here and begin negotiations to put your guys at ASA without our input.

TY WEB:

The RJ is artificially constrained on the routes it can fly by Section 1 of the Delta contract. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but less than 900 miles I think is the number. Strange that if I fly the airplane, it only goes 900 miles, if Admiral Lee up there is at the commands, it goes 2,200 miles.

Also, while Delta is performing poorly (and we are tied to their fortunes), ASA is making considerably more than Airtran. Again, I am not slamming Airtran, heck, I buy your stock any time is goes below $4 a share. The 717 is a perfect airplane for you, but Delta will lose their shirt is they fly it. Delta has priced itself (not just the pilots - ops also) out of the sub 150 seat market, their costs are too high to operate aircraft that small at a profit.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Boeing announced Airtran cancelled 9 orders, with the deal on the 22 leased ex TWA, ex AA aircraft. Airtran advises they will release 2004 fleet planning information about mid point of 03.

 

[E120ASA]

Hey, leave them alone and good luck. A great group of people and I wish them the best. As always, thanks for the ride.

 

[Ty Webb]

ASA is making considerably more than Airtran. Again, I am not slamming Airtran, heck, I buy your stock any time is goes below $4 a share. The 717 is a perfect airplane for you, but Delta will lose their shirt is they fly it.

I wasn't aware that ASA posts P&L numbers separately from Delta. Do you have the specific numbers to back up your statement? I think it would be hard to prove that "ASA is making considerably more money than AirTran". Sure, you're carrying nice loads of pax, but they are riding you on Delta's good name, in Delta's system, because of Delta's advertising, Delta's frequent flyer program, etc . . . . all of which cost money!

I also do not agree with you that our gate utilization is not economical compared to ASA. We're doing 152 departures a day, with the same number of gates as you. You'd have to do 375 departures a day out of ATL just to have the same number of ASM's coming out of an identical number of gates. How many departures are you guys doing out of ATL?

As for the AAI stock- they are calling for $.40 a share next year and $.60 by 2004 so I think the stock is a good buy, too.

In any event, good luck to you and everyone else on Ramp 3 and 4 . . . . .!