1st, 2nd, 3rd and Final Climb Segments

[RJFlyer]

I know I read about and memorized the definitions of 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Final Segment Climb long long ago, but can't for the life of me remember the definitions and details, and can't find it in the FAR/AIM.

Any help?

Thanks!

 

[Mach.75]

I'm sure I'm missing something and I'm sure someone will let me know, but:

1st: From takeoff to gear up at constant V2, with T/O power
2nd: Gear up to level off, again at V2, with T/O power
3rd: Level, accelerating to Vfs while retracting flaps, with T/O power
Final Segment: At Vfs, 1500', gear/flaps retracted, max. continuous power.

 

[vclean]

1st seg. Starts at 35' above runway at V2. Extends to height at end of gear retraction. Postive climb gradient. Constant V2 speed.

2nd seg. Gear is up. Constant V2 speed. 2.4% minimum climb gradient.

3rd seg. Starts at no less than 400 agl. At t/o thrust accelerate to final segment speed (V2 + 5) while retracting flaps.

Final seg. Maximum continuous thrust to 1500' agl or 35' clearance of obstacle

Climb gradient of 3rd and final segments cannot be less than 1.2%

 

[JECKEL]

It won't be in the FAR/AIM. It has nothing to do with regulatins or rules.

It deals with aircraft certification - what the airplane will and won't be able to do - not the pilot.

It it covered under Part 25.

 

[minitour]

It won't be in the FAR/AIM. It has nothing to do with regulatins or rules.

It deals with aircraft certification - what the airplane will and won't be able to do - not the pilot.

It it covered under Part 25.

Not to be a d!ck but...

...that's kind of a contradiction isn't it?

"...nothing to do with regulations..."

"...covered under Part 25..."

-mini

 

[RJFlyer]

1st seg. Starts at 35' above runway at V2. Extends to height at end of gear retraction. Postive climb gradient. Constant V2 speed.

2nd seg. Gear is up. Constant V2 speed. 2.4% minimum climb gradient.

3rd seg. Starts at no less than 400 agl. At t/o thrust accelerate to final segment speed (V2 + 5) while retracting flaps.

Final seg. Maximum continuous thrust to 1500' agl or 35' clearance of obstacle

Climb gradient of 3rd and final segments cannot be less than 1.2%

And this is both engines, or single-engine climb?

Thanks for the info!

 

[vclean]

Engine failure at V1.

 

[JAFI]

RJ, You will find the information scattered from 25.101 to about 25.115. You may not find part 25 in your standard FAR/AIM but here is a link:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=eb8abf60b33111357cc2e01a44199141&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:1.0.1.3.10&idno=14

or try this:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/arm/

JAFI

This is all part of the (minimum) required climb performance for take off. There is also climb performance for (aborted) landing and go around.

 

[deez_nutz2000]

And this is both engines, or single-engine climb?

Thanks for the info!

I really hope you are kidding, seeing that you fly an RJ and all.

 

[RJFlyer]

I really hope you are kidding, seeing that you fly an RJ and all.

These are details that I've learned in the past, haven't used in several years (the definitions of climb segments, that is) and have since forgotten. In the RJ, we have something called a Runway Analysis Manual. It tells us everything we need to know in regard to how heavy we can be to take off on a given runway at a given temerature and flap setting, or whether we can at all, and it's predicated on the most limiting of several factors, one of which is single-engine climb performance. Nowhere does it mention or require knowledge of the definitions of climb segments. I couldn't remember and couldn't find it in the FARs, so I asked. So bite me.

 

[idratherfly4283]

I agree with some of the other assesments RJflyer. There is no reason that you should not know the most basic of elements such as this. It is unacceptable to "forget", that is why they create these things called books. What one does is that they read them every once in awhile to make sure they have not forgotten such simple elements such as this. I find it extremely inexcusable that you fail to do your job.

 

[GCD]

I'd recommend reading Part 25. Some of you have this a bit botched up.

 

[avbug]

Seems that nobody can come here and ask a question without being gutted and fried. That's too bad.

The engine out climb gradients specified in Part 25 are designed to ensure that aircraft certificated under that part can still meet minimum performance criteria with a partial power loss; this regulation is intended to meet a higher standard than that prescribed in Part 23.

Both Part 23 and Part 25 prescribe a great deal of technical information, formulas and technical requirements, that few people will ever memorize. What the minimum certification climb gradients are is really quite irrelevant. You do not need to memorize them. Doing so certainly doesn't hurt, but don't be so fast to beat someone up because they didn't have that information at their fingertips.

You might recall that even the FAA is more interested in weather you can find the information, than weather you know it all...and certainly would rather see someone admit they don't know it than someone try to bluff their way through.

When considering climb gradients, the only numbers of any significance are real-time numbers. In other words, what will this aircraft do right now, at this elevation, at this weight, at this temperature, in this wind, with these runway conditions. What the aircraft did for certification is unimportant. What can it do right now?

Accordingly, we calculate every takeoff, every landing, and plan for the book performance. Your AFM performance section should include climb gradient and rate of climb information for both all-engine operation, and engine-out operation. You should calculate both. However, if you calculate performance with an engine out and find that it can meet the climb gradient criteria for the departure in consideration, then it's a cinch that you will easily exceed it with all engines operating.

Some of you guys seem to just wait in the wings looking for the wounded, so you can attack. Give it a rest, already.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Not to be a d!ck but...

...that's kind of a contradiction isn't it?

"...nothing to do with regulations..."

"...covered under Part 25..."

-mini

Well yes and no ........even though he said that it "has nothing to do with regulations", he did say it wouldn't be in the FAR/AIM. What was probably meant was that, "it has nothing to do with [standard operating] regulations". If you haven't learned this yet (I am being serious) the FAR/AIM is only a small segment of the entire CFR.
........and I have to agree with Avbug.....I regularly preach "never stop studying and learning(and relearning if necessary) but I'd like one of you Uber-Pilots to describe to me how thorough memorization of the exact specifics of the climb segments is going to assist you beyond what you have already referenced in the AFM regarding that specific takeoff on which an engine does fail?

 

[DashTrash400]

I agree with some of the other assesments RJflyer. There is no reason that you should not know the most basic of elements such as this. It is unacceptable to "forget", that is why they create these things called books. What one does is that they read them every once in awhile to make sure they have not forgotten such simple elements such as this. I find it extremely inexcusable that you fail to do your job.

Eh, lighten up Francis.

Knowing the precise definition of each segment of takeoff has nothing to do with the safe conduct of flight, and I suspect few airline pilots could give you a correct unrehearsed answer. It's something you learn for the ATP written & possibly freshen up on for prochecks. Not everyone has a copy of FAR 25 in their back pocket, so RJFlyer was being perfectly reasonable by "using all his resources" and asking around here.

As for me, I study the FSM and Ops Manual a few hours every month to stay fresh, but if it isn't something I need to know to stay safe and legal, and I have no great curiosity to satisfy, I don't waste time.

 

[Full of Foehn]

Ease up!

I agree with some of the other assesments RJflyer. There is no reason that you should not know the most basic of elements such as this. It is unacceptable to "forget", that is why they create these things called books. What one does is that they read them every once in awhile to make sure they have not forgotten such simple elements such as this. I find it extremely inexcusable that you fail to do your job.

By your profile I see you’re a newbie like me, some humility an a little observation might be in order before you start questioning the professionalism of others on these boards. Unlike you, I cannot remember all of the certification parameters of my plane, you know like aisle width, jacking loads, mass balance G load limits, etc., but that is because I don't certify them, I fly them. As somebody else pointed out, if RJFlyer is single-engine after T/O in Aspen in the summer he isn't going to give a d@mn about what segment he's flying or what the minimum percent climb gradient the plane is certified for, he's going to want to know where he needs to point the plane so as not to be snuffed by the Earth. That is his job.

 

[JAFI]

IMHO RJFlyer asked a valid question. I hope we gave him enough information to answer his question.

Knowing the climb gradients are not only a certification issue but important for any one who flys near any obstruction. Any pilot in command needs to know if they can clear obstructions. Some aircraft will not meet the climb required for a set temp, aircraft weight, altitude, etc. You need to look at the charts and know the local topography to determine this. The 121 airlines are required to have this figured out and supply the PIC with the information. The others are suppose to figure this out for your self. Go to any good initial or recurrent part 25 (or CAR Transport) aircraft training and this is part of the class. Guaranteed climb is not required for a Part 23 aircraft. You should know this.

I say you do need to understand what the climb gradients do enough to use the charts. Memorizing the FAR 25 reference in not required.

I say RJFlyer you keep asking questions and I will do what I can to assist.

Your flamers can pound salt.

JAFI
Just an Average F$%^ing Inspector

 

[RTN137]

i'm not into this flaming thing either but good-grief the guy is flying an rj so this is pretty basic stuff. one or two engine???heres a question. if i make flaps up landing in my jet will it increase my landing distance? its been a long time since i've done that and cant remember.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

The funniest part is......NO ONE HAS EVEN CORRECTLY ANSWERED THE FREAKIN' QUESTION YET!!!

The FAA climb segment gradients required for two-engined turbine-powered aircraft are: [1] for the first segment, a positive rate of climb; [2] for the second segment, a climb gradient of not less than 2.4%; [3] for the transition segment, a climb gradient of not less than 1.2%.
The takeoff flight path is considered to begin when the aircraft has reached a height of 35' above the surface and continues to a point 1,500' above the surface, or to the point where the single engine enroute climb speed of 1.38 Vs(138% of stall speed) is reached, whichever point is higher.

First Segment - This is the climb segment just after lift-off and continues until the landing gear is retracted. The speed will vary from VLof to V2 at 35'. The allowable gradient is a positive climb.
Second Segment - This segment starts at the time the landing gear is fully retracted and continues until the aircraft reaches an altitude of at least 400' above the runway. It is flown at V2 and must have a gradient of at least 2.4%.
Transition Segment This segment includes the acceleration and final segments. The takeoff flight path profile will vary during the transition segment depending upon obstacle location and height. If obstacle clearance requirements warrant, the climb to 1,500' can be made in the second segment configuration.

1st seg. Starts at 35' above runway at V2. Extends to height at end of gear retraction. Postive climb gradient. Constant V2 speed.

Sounds more like Reference Zero(a point 35' above the runway at the computed takeoff distance) and second segment combined and a prime example of why his question may not be that stupid. At this point, all I need is the Close In and Distant charts. Again, everything that I need to operate the aircraft safely, is in the AOM. No offense against vclean and if I missed anything or got anything wrong, by all means........what the heck was I thinking.....of course you'll let me know how deficient and unprofessional I am.

 

[RTN137]

happy reading

Sec. 25.121 Climb: One-engine-inoperative.

(a) Takeoff; landing gear extended. In the critical takeoff configuration

existing along the flight path (between the points at which the airplane

reaches VLOF and at which the landing gear is fully retracted) and in the

configuration used in Sec. 25.111 but without ground effect, the steady

gradient of climb must be positive for two-engine airplanes, and not less

than 0.3 percent for three-engine airplanes or 0.5 percent for four-engine

airplanes, at VLOF and with--

(1) The critical engine inoperative and the remaining engines at the power

or thrust available when retraction of the landing gear is begun in

accordance with Sec. 25.111 unless there is a more critical power operating

condition existing later along the flight path but before the point at which

the landing gear is fully retracted; and

(2) The weight equal to the weight existing when retraction of the landing

gear is begun, determined under Sec. 25.111.

(b) Takeoff; landing gear retracted. In the takeoff configuration existing

at the point of the flight path at which the landing gear is fully retracted,

and in the configuration used in Sec. 25.111 but without ground effect, the

steady gradient of climb may not be less than 2.4 percent for two-engine

airplanes, 2.7 percent for three-engine airplanes, and 3.0 percent for four-engine

airplanes, at V2 and with--

(1) The critical engine inoperative, the remaining engines at the takeoff

power or thrust available at the time the landing gear is fully retracted,

determined under Sec. 25.111, unless there is a more critical power operating

condition existing later along the flight path but before the point where the

airplane reaches a height of 400 feet above the takeoff surface; and

(2) The weight equal to the weight existing when the airplane's landing

gear is fully retracted, determined under Sec. 25.111.

(c) Final takeoff. In the en route configuration at the end of the takeoff

path determined in accordance with Sec. 25.111, the steady gradient of climb

may not be less than 1.2 percent for two-engine airplanes, 1.5 percent for

three-engine airplanes, and 1.7 percent for four-engine airplanes, at not

less than 1.25 VS and with--

(1) The critical engine inoperative and the remaining engines at the

available maximum continuous power or thrust; and

(2) The weight equal to the weight existing at the end of the takeoff path,

determined under Sec. 25.111.

(d) Approach. In the approach configuration corresponding to the normal

all-engines-operating procedure in which VS for this configuration does not

exceed 110 percent of the VS for the related landing configuration, the

steady gradient of climb may not be less than 2.1 percent for two-engine

airplanes, 2.4 percent for three-engine airplanes, and 2.7 percent for four-engine

airplanes, with--

(1) The critical engine inoperative, the remaining engines at the go-around

power or thrust setting;

(2) The maximum landing weight; and

(3) A climb speed established in connection with normal landing procedures,

but not exceeding 1.5 VS.