18 hour duty days are safe?

[propilot]

There is a long line of pilots who will tell you otherwise. Lets see its 2100, I have been on duty 15 hours, I am in MMIO, and I have choice to spend the night in MMIO, with a cab ride through MMIO in the middle of the night, or hop in my airplane and fly home in three hours. Almost everyone would make the decision at that time to go home. However I believe you are waving the safety flag. and no one can ever be against the safety flag. So to say any more when the safety flag is waving is a loosing battle. BTW not to mention that 18 hrs of duty is legal under 121 for a two-man crew with, if a third man rides the jump seat for all but 2 hrs. Rest in the jump seat is such a good thing. Again not mentioning the 16-20 hours days crossing 4-5 time zones? Are we going to ban int'l flying or stop in Iceland and change crews, turn a 2-day trip into a 6-day trip with no additional flying?

Yip,
You've been behind the desk too long. A good captain will take the plane 30 minutes north to Lardeo and call it a night and avoid both scenarios you're suggesting. Concerning long haul international, it's a completely different animal with 3-4 pilots and racks in the airplane for some solid sleep. Even so, I'd love to see this long line of pilots. I don't know anyone at my company that likes 4 person crews with 18 plus hour duty days. You need to lay off the bean counter kool-aid.

 

[pilotyip]

Ron lrd

Yip,
You've been behind the desk too long. A good captain will take the plane 30 minutes north to Lardeo and call it a night and avoid both scenarios you're suggesting. Concerning long haul international, it's a completely different animal with 3-4 pilots and racks in the airplane for some solid sleep. Even so, I'd love to see this long line of pilots. I don't know anyone at my company that likes 4 person crews with 18 plus hour duty days. You need to lay off the bean counter kool-aid.

If RON LRD, now we now have a legal crew omn the boarder, we will hold you until we get a return trip or you can bring it home tongiht. I am the Capt, I am coming home safely. To each his own, as stated before this comes from 40 years in this business and 13,000 hours

 

[brokeflyer]

ah, some people just dont get it.

that's too long of duty day and its not safe....14 hours is too long and that has been proven time and again to be unsafe...so adding MORE time just makes it MORE unsafe.

Stand up to this and dont allow it. You're idiot manager has nothing to lose.

 

[zasca]

Our job is to manage risk, not take risks. Eff the company, gimme a hotel, what am I going to accomplish on a day when I land at 3 and get home at 5am

 

[Skywest Pylot]

18 hours is a piece of cake if your duty started at 0700 after a good nights sleep and going until 0100 to get back home. 18 hours is a ball buster if your duty started at 1900 after a being up all day and going until 1300 the next day. What about a four sooze in the FBO during the 18 hours? all these things come into consideration. 18 hours by itself tells nothing.

I don't think so.

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/backgr/fatigue_performance_impairment_1997.html

"Therefore, after 17 hours of sustained wakefulness (3:00) cognitive psychomotor performance decreased to a level equivalent to the performance impairment observed at a blood alcohol concentration of 0.05%."

 

[Browntothebone]

You guys need to be more of a team player and look out for the good of the company and not just your own selfish agenda to work as little as possible.

 

[dojetdriver]

There is a long line of pilots who will tell you otherwise. Lets see its 2100, I have been on duty 15 hours, I am in MMIO, and I have choice to spend the night in MMIO, with a cab ride through MMIO in the middle of the night, or hop in my airplane and fly home in three hours. Almost everyone would make the decision at that time to go home.

Just go to the Hampton Inn SLW, nice place with a free breakfast.

Not sure what's wrong with a cab ride there.

 

[Mike man]

...or hop in my airplane and fly home in three hours. Almost everyone would make the decision at that time to go home...

Until they don't come home.

 

[pilotyip]

I will make the decisions

Until they don't come home.

I will make the determination if I safe to fly, not you. If you are fatigued and can not safely make the trip, you go to the hotel. But being up from 0600, until 2100, with a two-hour nap at MCI while waiting for freight, I am in good shape to make that decision to safety come home. I am much more rested in this situation than I was coming out of the KDAY Emery hub with one hour of duty at 0400 my first day on duty after being on days off living my family's daytime schedule. BTW as posted above, by BTTB, it goods like the fatigue flag is being waved freely to avoid work when it is not really a safety issue.

 

[suupah]

I will make the determination if I safe to fly, not you. If you are fatigued and can not safely make the trip, you go to the hotel. But being up from 0600, until 2100, with a two-hour nap at MCI while waiting for freight, I am in good shape to make that decision to safety come home. I am much more rested in this situation than I was coming out of the KDAY Emery hub with one hour of duty at 0400 my first day on duty after being on days off living my family's daytime schedule. BTW as posted above, by BTTB, it goods like the fatigue flag is being waved freely to avoid work when it is not really a safety issue.

The delays here in the regional world are caused by MX or WX both of which don't gaurantee you time to nap as you wait for updates on either condition. My company also does not give you a proper place to catch a nap at our bases. In fact in EWR they feel it necessary to keep lights on in the only area a nap is possible.

 

[OneBadLT123]

Yeah this has unsafe written all over it. I would drop the Fbomb so fast... (hell possibly both in one sentence)

 

[pilotyip]

As stated before

The delays here in the regional world are caused by MX or WX both of which don't gaurantee you time to nap as you wait for updates on either condition. My company also does not give you a proper place to catch a nap at our bases. In fact in EWR they feel it necessary to keep lights on in the only area a nap is possible.

You make the decision just like I do

 

[brokeflyer]

You guys need to be more of a team player and look out for the good of the company and not just your own selfish agenda to work as little as possible.

lololol.....you need to sit in my right seat and ill slap the brown right off your azz.....hows that for a team player?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

You make the decision just like I do

Yep, now just trying to get the Feds to put it in writing so we can all be on the same page. I used to work for SkyWest so I know how being an "At Will" employee can play into the decision making process. This industry already has enough blood on its hands.

 

[Nevets]

Yep, now just trying to get the Feds to put it in writing so we can all be on the same page. I used to work for SkyWest so I know how being an "At Will" employee can play into the decision making process. This industry already has enough blood on its hands.

Is your name Don?

 

[belchfire]

Yip, either NASA or the NTSB have a graph showing the percentages of accidents that occur at what point in the duty day.

I suggest that you take a good, long look at it-apply some comprehensive study techniques and understand what that plot is telling you-and then get back to us...

bearing in mind of course that there was some CP or OD breathing down their necks to get the job done, a weak or non-existent union and that they had done it before and it'll probably be okay.

 

[pilotyip]

so what is the number?

Yip, either NASA or the NTSB have a graph showing the percentages of accidents that occur at what point in the duty day.

The safest way to operate airplanes is never to fly them, that way there will never be an accidnet. However once you take an airplane into the air you acept a degree of risk. You have to manage that risk, how you manage that risk is where there a wide variety of opinions. So what is the number that makes us safe for duty; 12 hours max, 4 hours max? 6 hours max? What the number that makes duty never a problem? As I stated before I have bene in worse shape after one hour duty coming out the Emery Hub at KDAY at 0400 my first day of duty than I have been after 18 hours of duty during an almost all day time operation.

 

[suupah]

You make the decision just like I do

Your decision making capacity is diminished after a certain amount of time awake due to your judgement being equivalent to that of someone who has had a few drinks.

 

[SLUF4]

Of course we have to manage risk-this being one of the big ones! The problem is that when you're that tired you can't make very good decisions and you may not make the decision to pull yourself off a trip. It's funny to me how we all analyze weather, maintenance etc, but we put such little stock in a pilot that is fit to fly.

 

[pilotyip]

Which Decision?

Your decision making capacity is diminished after a certain amount of time awake due to your judgement being equivalent to that of someone who has had a few drinks.

And your point is? I should not have taken the trip out of KDAY at 0400 after being on duty for one hour because I was fatigued? Or I should not have taken the 18-hour trip to get back home basically when I felt fully rested? Which decision would you want to make for me?