18 hour duty days are safe?

[pilotyip]

rolling the dice

It really comes down to risk management. You are rolling the dice with an 18 hour duty day. It is completely avoidable with proper use of reserves and sufficient staffing.

You are rolling the dice on a 600 RVR Take Off with the Flight Director deferred; you are rolling the dice when you your approach to a mins airport rolling the dice are something we do in this business all the time. We evaluate the risk, and compensate. My views are not management, there are from my 40 years and 13,000 hours as a flight crewmember. Management does not play a part in this, this is a crew’s response. BTW the anything that adds to the cost of the doing business, reduces the amount avaialbe to pay pilots. What would the vote be, "We are going to hire another 14 pilots to ensure you never fly more than 12 hours a day, but everyone takes a 25% pay cut?"

 

[suupah]

Right, well when you have been awake for 17 hours the scientists seem to think that you are operating at a level of someone who is legally intoxicated. This includes sound judgement in the self assessment of whether you are fit to fly or not. Human performance should be the strongest link in the chain not the weakest in any risk assessment model.

 

[Browntothebone]

You are rolling the dice on a 600 RVR Take Off with the Flight Director deferred; you are rolling the dice when you your approach to a mins airport rolling the dice are something we do in this business all the time. We evaluate the risk, and compensate. My views are not management, there are from my 40 years and 13,000 hours as a flight crewmember. Management does not play a part in this, this is a crew’s response. BTW the anything that adds to the cost of the doing business, reduces the amount avaialbe to pay pilots. What would the vote be, "We are going to hire another 14 pilots to ensure you never fly more than 12 hours a day, but everyone takes a 25% pay cut?"

What the regional pilots are hoping for is the government to mandate hiring the additional pilots and getting a 25% pay RAISE.

 

[pilotyip]

Still did not address the int'l issue

Right, well when you have been awake for 17 hours the scientists seem to think that you are operating at a level of someone who is legally intoxicated. This includes sound judgement in the self assessment of whether you are fit to fly or not. Human performance should be the strongest link in the chain not the weakest in any risk assessment model.

What about the int'l flying. How are you going to limit that? RON's at Kev? Sleeping in the cockpit is used by others countries to conbat fatique. FAA did study in the late 80's early 90's and recommend controlled sleeping in the cockpit was the best way to combat fatigue. They studied the occurrence of micro naps, these are naps that you have no control over, and you nod off. On crews studied who did not have controlled sleeping in the cockpit there were 147 occurrences of micro nap, a number of them during the approach phase. On the crews at foreign airlines that allowed sleeping in the cockpit, there were no occurrences of micro naps during the approach phase. The FAA recommended that controlled napping in the cockpit be adopted as US policy, however Gov’t officials felt that official recognition of sleeping on the job was un-American. Sorry of a mirco-nap. When you fly shifting schedules, you have to plan sleeping otherwise it is uncontrollable. Having one guy rest his eyes for 20 minutes, when other one knows it is going on does wonders for your ability to make that tight approach at the end of the night. However when everyone in the cockpit is asleep, that is scary. We used to fly these night and day patrols around Vietnam, terrible schedule, 12 hr flights, fly a day flight 12 hours off fly a night flight, 24 hrs off fly a day flight. 10 days in a row. One night off the south end of the country, at 0300, nothing is going on, no contacts, no chatter on the intercom, I am fighting off sleep and loosing, a mirco-nap hits and I nod off. I wake up, you do not know if it has been 30 seconds or 30 minutes, we are on the autopilot' at 1,500’, #1 engine in the bag to save fuel, and all 10 of the crew is asleep. Talk about being wide-awake, Where the are we? Now how do you wake up the PPC without letting him know you nodded off also? The F/E was also in the bag. So I called for "Coffee around for my friends" The point is the worse thing about sleeping in the cockpit is letting it sneak up on you, You know it might happen, plan on when it is going to happen, control it.

 

[pilotyip]

Fewer job woulds be the answer

What the regional pilots are hoping for is the government to mandate hiring the additional pilots and getting a 25% pay RAISE.

That is part of the FI Fantasy, that the cost of tickets can rise without effecting tickets sold. It can be done under re-reg with the loss of jobs, good for some senior guys, bad for most junior guys.

 

[propilot]

There is a long line of pilots who will tell you otherwise. Lets see its 2100, I have been on duty 15 hours, I am in MMIO, and I have choice to spend the night in MMIO, with a cab ride through MMIO in the middle of the night, or hop in my airplane and fly home in three hours. Almost everyone would make the decision at that time to go home. However I believe you are waving the safety flag. and no one can ever be against the safety flag. So to say any more when the safety flag is waving is a loosing battle. BTW not to mention that 18 hrs of duty is legal under 121 for a two-man crew with, if a third man rides the jump seat for all but 2 hrs. Rest in the jump seat is such a good thing. Again not mentioning the 16-20 hours days crossing 4-5 time zones? Are we going to ban int'l flying or stop in Iceland and change crews, turn a 2-day trip into a 6-day trip with no additional flying?

Yip,
You've been behind the desk too long. A good captain will take the plane 30 minutes north to Lardeo and call it a night and avoid both scenarios you're suggesting. Concerning long haul international, it's a completely different animal with 3-4 pilots and racks in the airplane for some solid sleep. Even so, I'd love to see this long line of pilots. I don't know anyone at my company that likes 4 person crews with 18 plus hour duty days. You need to lay off the bean counter kool-aid.

 

[pilotyip]

Ron lrd

Yip,
You've been behind the desk too long. A good captain will take the plane 30 minutes north to Lardeo and call it a night and avoid both scenarios you're suggesting. Concerning long haul international, it's a completely different animal with 3-4 pilots and racks in the airplane for some solid sleep. Even so, I'd love to see this long line of pilots. I don't know anyone at my company that likes 4 person crews with 18 plus hour duty days. You need to lay off the bean counter kool-aid.

If RON LRD, now we now have a legal crew omn the boarder, we will hold you until we get a return trip or you can bring it home tongiht. I am the Capt, I am coming home safely. To each his own, as stated before this comes from 40 years in this business and 13,000 hours

 

[brokeflyer]

ah, some people just dont get it.

that's too long of duty day and its not safe....14 hours is too long and that has been proven time and again to be unsafe...so adding MORE time just makes it MORE unsafe.

Stand up to this and dont allow it. You're idiot manager has nothing to lose.

 

[zasca]

Our job is to manage risk, not take risks. Eff the company, gimme a hotel, what am I going to accomplish on a day when I land at 3 and get home at 5am

 

[Skywest Pylot]

18 hours is a piece of cake if your duty started at 0700 after a good nights sleep and going until 0100 to get back home. 18 hours is a ball buster if your duty started at 1900 after a being up all day and going until 1300 the next day. What about a four sooze in the FBO during the 18 hours? all these things come into consideration. 18 hours by itself tells nothing.

I don't think so.

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/backgr/fatigue_performance_impairment_1997.html

"Therefore, after 17 hours of sustained wakefulness (3:00) cognitive psychomotor performance decreased to a level equivalent to the performance impairment observed at a blood alcohol concentration of 0.05%."

 

[Browntothebone]

You guys need to be more of a team player and look out for the good of the company and not just your own selfish agenda to work as little as possible.

 

[dojetdriver]

There is a long line of pilots who will tell you otherwise. Lets see its 2100, I have been on duty 15 hours, I am in MMIO, and I have choice to spend the night in MMIO, with a cab ride through MMIO in the middle of the night, or hop in my airplane and fly home in three hours. Almost everyone would make the decision at that time to go home.

Just go to the Hampton Inn SLW, nice place with a free breakfast.

Not sure what's wrong with a cab ride there.

 

[Mike man]

...or hop in my airplane and fly home in three hours. Almost everyone would make the decision at that time to go home...

Until they don't come home.

 

[pilotyip]

I will make the decisions

Until they don't come home.

I will make the determination if I safe to fly, not you. If you are fatigued and can not safely make the trip, you go to the hotel. But being up from 0600, until 2100, with a two-hour nap at MCI while waiting for freight, I am in good shape to make that decision to safety come home. I am much more rested in this situation than I was coming out of the KDAY Emery hub with one hour of duty at 0400 my first day on duty after being on days off living my family's daytime schedule. BTW as posted above, by BTTB, it goods like the fatigue flag is being waved freely to avoid work when it is not really a safety issue.

 

[suupah]

I will make the determination if I safe to fly, not you. If you are fatigued and can not safely make the trip, you go to the hotel. But being up from 0600, until 2100, with a two-hour nap at MCI while waiting for freight, I am in good shape to make that decision to safety come home. I am much more rested in this situation than I was coming out of the KDAY Emery hub with one hour of duty at 0400 my first day on duty after being on days off living my family's daytime schedule. BTW as posted above, by BTTB, it goods like the fatigue flag is being waved freely to avoid work when it is not really a safety issue.

The delays here in the regional world are caused by MX or WX both of which don't gaurantee you time to nap as you wait for updates on either condition. My company also does not give you a proper place to catch a nap at our bases. In fact in EWR they feel it necessary to keep lights on in the only area a nap is possible.