135 Question

[Lrjtcaptain]

If an 135 operator doesn't have an FAA designated callsign for their flight, are they required under current 135 rules to file as a TN12345? If so, where is it in the FARAIM

 

[gkrangers]

What is the T for?

 

[MauleSkinner]

AIM Paragraph 4-2-4; FAA Order 8400.10; and RADIO COMMUNICATIONS PHRASEOLOGY AND TECHNIQUES - FAA-P-8740-47 all state something to the effect of

4. Air Taxi or other commercial operators not having FAA authorized call signs should prefix their normal identification with the phonetic word "Tango."
EXAMPLE -
Tango Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.

Nothing I can find says anything specifically about "filing" Tango November, but that's how the 135 guys started flying before the rest of us after 9/11, and I've heard it on the radio more often since then than I did before.

Fly safe!

David

 

[AngelKing]

I believe that started back during the Reagan controller strike days. But, I can't remember yesterday, so don't quote me on it.

ak

 

[A Squared]

I believe that started back during the Reagan controller strike days. But, I can't remember yesterday, so don't quote me on it.

ak

I can't say whether that's when it started, but I do agree that it was around a long time before 9/11. It gained some popularity after 9/11 in that period when 135 flights were the only GA flights allowed.

 

[Way2Broke]

What is the T for?

Stands for Temporary.

 

[Hold West]

I always thought it meant "air Taxi". I base that on nothing but raw assumption. Hazy memory seems to remember it being in existance before the '81 strike, but I'm not sure.

I did learn something though. In my book:

3. Air taxi and commercial operators not having FAA authorized call signs. State the prefix "TANGO" on initial contact, if used by the pilot, followed by the registration number. The prefix may be dropped in subsequent communications.

I don't have to use it after the first exchange. Hmmm, that kinds of begs the question, "why does it exist at all?" I don't know - makes absolutely no difference from an ATC standpoint, whether "Tango" or not.

I'll be interested if anyone can shed light on this one.

 

[Way2Broke]

I always thought it meant "air Taxi". I base that on nothing but raw assumption. Hazy memory seems to remember it being in existance before the '81 strike, but I'm not sure.

I did learn something though. In my book:

3. Air taxi and commercial operators not having FAA authorized call signs. State the prefix "TANGO" on initial contact, if used by the pilot, followed by the registration number. The prefix may be dropped in subsequent communications.

I don't have to use it after the first exchange. Hmmm, that kinds of begs the question, "why does it exist at all?" I don't know - makes absolutely no difference from an ATC standpoint, whether "Tango" or not.

I'll be interested if anyone can shed light on this one.

I do not have anything to back up my statement, besides just hear say. I wanted to thank you for teaching me something though, I did not know it could be ommited on subsequent communications. Can you give me the Ref book and where you found that? I'll pass it along to our CP.

 

[A Squared]

I always thought it meant "air Taxi". [/COLOR]

I think that this is correct, or at least it makes more sense than "temporary". Temporary what? I know some pretty permenant 135 operations that use it, and have for many years.

Way2broke, I'm guessing "his book" is the ATC handbook, FAA order 7110.65

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/

 

[Way2Broke]

What I have always been told is that T is for temporary. Temporary because the idea is that you are only using the TN12345 call sign while you wait for your permenant call sign to be approved. Either way both ideas make since to me and it is probably not in a book anywhere so it really does not matter. One of thos "whatever makes you happy" things. Kindove like the NDB service volumes; nowhere does it say what MH, H, or HH stands for. The only one that is defined is a compass locator. (AIM 1-1-8, table 1-2-2) Although I have always been TOLD that they stand for Medium High, High, and High High. Like that makes any since! I want some of what that guy was smokin!

If I am wrong I will be more than happy to admit to it because I have no source for the temporary, its just what I was told in training. I was also told a bunch of other stuff that has proven to be hog wash too.

Where at in the ATC book can I find what he looked up? I'd like to print it out and take it in. And if we can find where it says "Air Taxi" I'd love to take that in too!

I'm always up for learning new things! I just like to have a source instead of hear-say so that I avoid situations exactly like this one.

 

[flyboyzz1]

Yeah i think it means air taxi. We use it all the time when we have folks on board. I know we are not trying to get a call sign from the faa so I dont think it means temp. but I could be wrong

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Well I had heard through the grape vine that post 9/11 it was a requirment for all 135 operators to either operate with an FAA approaved callsign or file it as a TN12345. I only ask because we are not counting correctly if this is the case because our idiot 135 operators don't file it under a TN, just N, and we as controllers need to know, are you a GA, Air Taxi, Air career ect.....Just wondering if 135's should be flying under TN

 

[MauleSkinner]

I don't have to use it after the first exchange. Hmmm, that kinds of begs the question, "why does it exist at all?" I don't know - makes absolutely no difference from an ATC standpoint, whether "Tango" or not.

I'll be interested if anyone can shed light on this one.

Theoretically it would explain to the controllers why you're doing some of those stupid things that are required under 135, like filing to an airport that you have no intention of landing at, that sort of thing

Fly safe!

David

 

[Ready2Fly]

You are wrong Way2Broke. It's not temporary.

 

[A Squared]

and we as controllers need to know, are you a GA, Air Taxi, Air career ect.....Just wondering if 135's should be flying under TN

Why do you need to know? What would you do differently in handling a Tango aircraft than the same type aircaft flown by a private individual for his own purposes?

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

Tie goes to the Tango November aircraft in terms of ATC handling. So I have heard. However, that has not been my experience. I could be Tango, Life Guard, or on fire and I would still be last in line.

 

[Texanflyboy]

We file TN in GRR all the time. I've spent some time up in their tower visiting and they like to see 135 ops file that way because they can count you as a commercial operator using their service. When the tower does the count at the end of the night, (counting Air Carrier, Commercial Operator, GA) the Air Carriers and Commercial Operators have more weight in the count than does GA. Why do they keep track? Better stats recieve better pay scales for that tower facility. This info is directly from the tower manager in GRR who owns the FBO that we're based at.

135 ops of course don't have to file that way. I never did until I visited the tower. The AIM only recommends it and for that very reason, stats. It doesn't say it's REQUIRED, only that 135's "should" file TN. When I started filing TN, I did notice more priority handeling. Getting direct more and more often in my clearences instead of some BS airways/fixes that make my life hell. Your priority will in the end be determined by your type of a/c, some are slower than others.

If you're a Life Guard you would file LN12345. That WILL give you priority.

 

[CaptainSpaz]

Having operated under 135 on the first day flights were allowed after Sept. 11th, I can tell you that the Tango prefix was REQUIRED to be used in lieu of a callsign for 135 operators, as people stated before. After 91 operations were in full swing again the need for this Tango thing was obviously unnecessary. Hence why 95% of operators don't use it anymore.

I think I may have repeated what others said, but thats my 2 cents.

 

[cvsfly]

Having operated under 135 on the first day flights were allowed after Sept. 11th, I can tell you that the Tango prefix was REQUIRED to be used in lieu of a callsign for 135 operators, as people stated before. After 91 operations were in full swing again the need for this Tango thing was obviously unnecessary. Hence why 95% of operators don't use it anymore.

I think I may have repeated what others said, but thats my 2 cents.

Not to be repetitive, but... TN.. has been in the AIM for quite awhile(recommended, hardly ever used). I understood it to mean "air Taxi". TN had to be used after 9/11 to be allowed in the airspace. It is not necessarily indicating the operator is waiting for a registered callsign (we will never have one). It was in a FDC notam. Helps ATC know that you probably aren't going to accept a LAHSO or why you have to use different minimums/procedures. Probably may help airport authorities with their traffic counts. Could be helpful in future with changing TSA/resticted airspace procedures. Gives the FAA ramp inspectors a heads up...doh!

 

[Choppy]

We file TN in GRR all the time. I've spent some time up in their tower visiting and they like to see 135 ops file that way because they can count you as a commercial operator using their service. When the tower does the count at the end of the night, (counting Air Carrier, Commercial Operator, GA) the Air Carriers and Commercial Operators have more weight in the count than does GA. Why do they keep track? Better stats recieve better pay scales for that tower facility. This info is directly from the tower manager in GRR who owns the FBO that we're based at.

135 ops of course don't have to file that way. I never did until I visited the tower. The AIM only recommends it and for that very reason, stats. It doesn't say it's REQUIRED, only that 135's "should" file TN. When I started filing TN, I did notice more priority handeling. Getting direct more and more often in my clearences instead of some BS airways/fixes that make my life hell. Your priority will in the end be determined by your type of a/c, some are slower than others.

If you're a Life Guard you would file LN12345. That WILL give you priority.

Texanflyboy hit the nail on the head as to why the Tower wants to know if you are 135 or 91. More funding for their airport.

 

[Excel'n]

Refer to FDC Notam 2/5128 IFR Operations - General (Part 2 of 6) and FDC Notam 2/5167 VFR Operations - General (Part 2 of 7) issued shortly after 9/11 and still in effect.

"PART 135 AIRCRAFT THAT DOES NOT HAVE A COMPANY CALL SIGN MUST FILE A "T" PRIOR TO THE AIRCRAFT TAIL NUMBER."

 

[A Squared]

Just to follow up, I checked in a 1983 AIM and It says exacty the the same as the current AIM regarding hte use of "tango"

Air Taxi or other commercial operators not having FAA authorized call signs should prefix their normal identification with the phonetic word "Tango."
EXAMPLE -
Tango Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.

 

[LearDriver]

Refer to FDC Notam 2/5128 IFR Operations - General (Part 2 of 6) and FDC Notam 2/5167 VFR Operations - General (Part 2 of 7) issued shortly after 9/11 and still in effect.

"PART 135 AIRCRAFT THAT DOES NOT HAVE A COMPANY CALL SIGN MUST FILE A "T" PRIOR TO THE AIRCRAFT TAIL NUMBER."

I believe Excel'n is correct, and that this is the reason that our 135 Ops manual still "requires" our operation to use TN on pax flights.

 

[surveypilot]

I file TN on every part 135 leg. The only helpful thing that I have ever noticed is that at airports that use LAHSO clearances frequently, I don't ever even get asked to accept one.