135 duty times... again

[pilotyip]

What defines abuse

Great comments on this issue. All I can say is that companies will continue to abuse this reg until pilots stand up against it!

What defines abuse? We have pilots out here that are looking for the chance to shut down a trip that goes a minute over, they want to do it just to show who is in charge. On the other hand we have pilots whom after a 12-hr cargo delay finish a 25-hr duty day. Somewhere in the middle is a reality that reflects the 135 duty regs.

 

[Nolife]

On the other hand we have pilots whom after a 12-hr cargo delay finish a 25-hr duty day. Somewhere in the middle is a reality that reflects the 135 duty regs.

Why not take crew rest for 10 hours it that situation?

Also that seems illegal... 25 hrs of duty. I can understand maybe 30 minutes to 1 hr but 25 hrs is excessive and unsafe. Those guys need to excercise common sense and pull the plug after a certain point.

 

[bizjet800]

What defines abuse? We have pilots out here that are looking for the chance to shut down a trip that goes a minute over, they want to do it just to show who is in charge. On the other hand we have pilots whom after a 12-hr cargo delay finish a 25-hr duty day. Somewhere in the middle is a reality that reflects the 135 duty regs.

I guess abuse is for the courts to decide. No one should shut down a trip because it goes over a few minutes. And its unlikely an FAA violation will result if you go over by a few minutes. When you start going over by 60 or 90 minutes, who's to say that is enough for a violation? There is no way you can explain a 20 duty day. I had a two separate trips one day and near the end of the first trip, I knew there was no way we could have finished the second part in 14 hours. In a perfect world, we could have finished in about 14+45. That is IF we had minimal time getting fuel, a quick in-and-out with customs in the US and Mexico. Which anyone who has done this knows that is never the case. We would have likely done a 16 hour+ duty day. So I refused to do the last trip. And with it went any chance of a raise or advancement. That company went out of business soon after I left. Whether I did that trip or not didn't matter. I know I did the right thing.

 

[pilotyip]

When they decide?

I guess abuse is for the courts to decide.

When the courts make a decision then we will have a more clear definition of what the reg means. It is more likely a new set of 135 duty regs will appear before that happens. One of the proposals is company's can design their own crew rest and duty for FAA approval, custom to their particular operation.

 

[Nolife]

One of the proposals is company's can design their own crew rest and duty for FAA approval, custom to their particular operation.

I think that would be a mistake. Most companies tend to place profit over safety and fatigue as a cause of an accident is very difficult to prove. I know of one management type who really dislikes the current rest rules and would have us fly exhausted to make a buck.

Part 135 is still not as safe as it could be... try getting life insurance as see if they'll cover you while at work. Major airline no problem, other type... cargo, charter, etc, you pay a much higher premium.

14/10 seems to be the fairest way so far... I'd even like 12/12.

 

[pilotyip]

I think that would be a mistake. Most companies tend to place profit over safety and fatigue as a cause of an accident is very difficult to prove. I know of one management type who really dislikes the current rest rules and would have us fly exhausted to make a buck.

Part 135 is still not as safe as it could be... try getting life insurance as see if they'll cover you while at work. Major airline no problem, other type... cargo, charter, etc, you pay a much higher premium.

14/10 seems to be the fairest way so far... I'd even like 12/12.

It is only a proposal, the FAA still has to approve it. But how do you cover 24/7 on-demand operations?

 

[oops!]

It is only a proposal, the FAA still has to approve it. But how do you cover 24/7 on-demand operations?

hire more people

 

[pilotyip]

and pay them less?

hire more people

And pay them less, because you will have more pilots doing the same about of flying. If you raise your rates to cover more pilots, you will have less flying which means fewer pilots or lower pay. There is no easy answer to this. If you have the answer you should raise the millions needed to start an airline and have the perfect on-demand work place where pilots flock to your company.

 

[oops!]

ok... sounds like a plan

 

[Way2Broke]

What defines abuse? We have pilots out here that are looking for the chance to shut down a trip that goes a minute over, they want to do it just to show who is in charge. On the other hand we have pilots whom after a 12-hr cargo delay finish a 25-hr duty day. Somewhere in the middle is a reality that reflects the 135 duty regs.

25 hours can be done safely if the right situation presents itself. Sometimes during a freight delay its possible to find a nice quiet crew room and take a good long nap. Sometimes its almost like sleeping in the hotel.

So its my understanding that the 14 hour duty day can be exceeded if the trip was legally planned under 14 hours. Trip meaning, you can stop, refuel, and take back off again. People seem to confuse trip with leg.

What is worse than a 14 hour duty day is when the pager gos off and you get a 14 hour trip right when your head hits the pillow. This is why when I am next to go out I sleep as much as possible.