135 duty times... again

[Nolife]

For unscheduled ops.

I've been told that you can exceed 14 hrs duty for circumstances beyond the control of the operator or flight crew, such as weather, cargo and pax late, ect. Looking at 135.267(d) I see no provision that would allow for this. All I see is an allowance for exceeding flight time in sections (c) & (e) of the part but (d) is pretty straight forward in that you must be able to show 10 hrs rest in the 24 hrs preceding the planned completion of the assignment. I interpret this to mean 14 hrs is written in stone and cannot be exceeded.

Any other opinions?

 

[dhc8fo]

§ 135.267 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews.

......

(e) When a flight crewmember has exceeded the daily flight time limitations in this section, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), that flight crewmember must have a rest period before being assigned or accepting an assignment for flight time of at least—
(1) 11 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by not more than 30 minutes;
(2) 12 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 30 minutes, but not more than 60 minutes; and
(3) 16 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 60 minutes.

 

[Nolife]

§ 135.267 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews.

......

(e) When a flight crewmember has exceeded the daily flight time limitations in this section, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), that flight crewmember must have a rest period before being assigned or accepting an assignment for flight time of at least—
(1) 11 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by not more than 30 minutes;
(2) 12 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 30 minutes, but not more than 60 minutes; and
(3) 16 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 60 minutes.

What you posted allows going over flight time, not duty time. Still haven't found anything that allows for looking back the previous 24 hrs and not finding 10 hrs consecutive rest.

Any more opinions or interpretations are apprecited.

 

[dhc8fo]

oooops, sorry man. Read too fast.

I will have to do a little more digging to give you another answer, but I do know that pax/cargo late is not a valid reason to extend your duty time.

"Legal to start, legal to finish" is what I will find for you and that will cover things beyond company's control like weather or a mechanical issue.

 

[dhc8fo]

OK, here it is:135.263 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All certificate holders

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.4.23&idno=14#PartTop(d) A flight crewmember is not considered to be assigned flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the planned flight time.

 

[Nolife]

OK, here it is:135.263 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All certificate holders

(d) A flight crewmember is not considered to be assigned flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the planned flight time.

I see what your saying but even this reg only stipulates that under a certain set of circumstances it's ok to exceed flight time limits. It says nothing about exceeding duty time, that is not having 10 hrs rest in the previous 24 hrs.

I've heard of people taking cargo delays, pax delays, mx delays, and wx delays, which extend out duty time not flight time and I believe that is illegal according to 135.267(d). Just seeking to understanding if I'm reading it wrong.

 

[FlyinFife]

FWIW: when I took my checkride for my first 135 gig, I had to do it with the FAA. The inspector basically agreed with what you are asking: flight time can be exceeded, while duty time is a hard limit that cannot. I know this is only anecdotal, but hopefully it helps at least a little bit. Unfortunately, he didn't give me any reference for this (I only assume this is because the regs are supposed to be as clear as mud and easily understandable).

 

[avbug]

I will have to do a little more digging to give you another answer, but I do know that pax/cargo late is not a valid reason to extend your duty time.

Actually it is and can be a valid reason, but bear in mind that there isn't duty time prescribed. There is rest time prescribed. You do not have an excuse for overstepping the prescribed rest requirements.

In this case, an unscheduled crew (different than an unscheduled operation) has no prescribed duty day. Only prescribed rest; 10 hours in the preceeding 24 hours. There is no duty limitation. You are limited by rest, not duty, and you can't compromise the rest period requirements.

You don't have a 14 hour duty limitation. You have a 10 hour rest limitation. That only leaves 14 hours in which to perform your duties, but a duty period isn't spelled out; only rest. It's not the duty issues that jeopardize you; it's the rest.

 

[pilotyip]

legal to start legal to finish, unless you call fatique

 

[avbug]

The term legal to start, legal to finish gets used a lot, but misused even more.

If you were legal to start the day, you're not necessarily legal to finish; a lot can happen between start and finish. Exceeding your rest intervals is one of them, as is exceeding your flight times.

More than anything else, there's that big, fat, hairy 14 CFR 91.13 hanging over you, and it's invoked in every legal interpretation on the subject, as well as being at the core of the regulation itself.