1261 days to go!

[Flopgut]

Yes, we noticed. And it's why I believe there should be a limit for ALL compensated flying or no limit at all (you can guess which I would prefer).

Why is it unsafe for a guy to fly a 737 for an airline the day after he turns 65 but it's perfectly safe for him to walk across the street the next day and fly a BBJ around the planet until he can't hold a medical, finally quits, or croaks?

Either it is safe at any age or it's unsafe beyond 65. Pick one....

Difference is the BBJ or any other "royal barge" can delay or adjust itneraries. Flying the line is the difference; The conveyor belt doesn't stop. It's the inherent margin for error that differentiates the two.

That being said, I think we are headed toward a mandatory maximum age for commercial flying. I think it will be underwriters and insurance companies that drive it. This Lear wreck with the old guy flying will pbly move things quicker. IMO it will be something like this: Turn 65 and you convert to Sport pilot privileges only (maybe 70 for non 121 scheduled). Or you just dont fly. May not be an official FAR, just limit for insurance. It will amount to far greater discrimination than ever existed with age 60. But, you can't do anything else when you toss out a decades old safety rule (with a perfect record) just to help out a small group of pilots,

 

[imacdog]

Difference is the BBJ or any other "royal barge" can delay or adjust itneraries. Flying the line is the difference; The conveyor belt doesn't stop. It's the inherent margin for error that differentiates the two.

Along with the possibility of delay comes the occurances of passengers/owners showing up early and demanding to go ASAP. Additionally, the pilots of corporate aircraft typically have many more responsibilities than walking through the door, turning left, and sitting down.

 

[vtech]

But, you can't do anything else when you toss out a decades old safety rule (with a perfect record) just to help out a small group of pilots,

Safety wasn't a consideration when the rule was implemented. The safety argument showed up later to justify the existence of the rule. Since you can't get over it, you might as well understand it. Study the history surrounding the implementation of the rule. It was all about economics at AA.

 

[Whataburger]

Any water flying today?

 

[DesertDuck]

Seems odd to not do something when the clock rolls over 0000 central.

Hmmm what to do.... +2

 

[Flyer1015]

See ya later, you craven, cowardly, greedy thieves.

How are they coward and thieves?



Suck it up. Age 65 was spreading internationally, and it was only a matter of time before it came to the US. What really sucked was the economy tanking in end of 2007, and the 2008-2010 recession. Otherwise, there would have been some hiring.


These people didn't steal from you. YOU people did not earn your seat at a legacy/major. You earn that seat when you are HIRED. Until then, they're not hogging your seat. And it wasn't greedy. Many of them watched their pensions get wiped in the post 9/11 world and then worked longer to get some money back in savings. In retrospect, I'm sure they wished they had saved more.


But regardless, Age 65 will help you one day if you decide you want to work longer than age 60. It's not like these guys upped it to Age 65, got their time and money, and then pulled a switcheroo and make it Age 60 again. Then I would understand it was cowardly and greedy. But the rule changed, and it changed for everybody.


Apply to the airlines, and hope for the best. But remember, no one stole anything from you. It's not yours until you earn it.

 

[flyboyike]

How are they coward and thieves?



Suck it up. Age 65 was spreading internationally, and it was only a matter of time before it came to the US. What really sucked was the economy tanking in end of 2007, and the 2008-2010 recession. Otherwise, there would have been some hiring.


These people didn't steal from you. YOU people did not earn your seat at a legacy/major. You earn that seat when you are HIRED. Until then, they're not hogging your seat. And it wasn't greedy. Many of them watched their pensions get wiped in the post 9/11 world and then worked longer to get some money back in savings. In retrospect, I'm sure they wished they had saved more.


But regardless, Age 65 will help you one day if you decide you want to work longer than age 60. It's not like these guys upped it to Age 65, got their time and money, and then pulled a switcheroo and make it Age 60 again. Then I would understand it was cowardly and greedy. But the rule changed, and it changed for everybody.


Apply to the airlines, and hope for the best. But remember, no one stole anything from you. It's not yours until you earn it.

None of the above makes it right.

 

[pilotyip]

None of the above makes it right.

but it does make it reality, so we all have to deal with it. Like death and taxes

 

[Flopgut]

Reality: It changed for pilots who were over 60 and under 65 as well. They were allowed to come back but specifically excluded from their previous seniority. So few pilots took advantage of this and returned it's obvious they didn't want the job really, they just wanted the seniority. 65 was an active campaign for someone elses job on the part of a bunch of old pilots.

 

[Flopgut]

Safety wasn't a consideration when the rule was implemented.

Everything in this business is a safety consideration.

 

[flyboyike]

but it does make it reality, so we all have to deal with it. Like death and taxes

I agree. I've dealt with it. It's still thievery.

 

[vtech]

Everything in this business is a safety consideration.

Except when it's not.

https://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/magazine/2005/Jan2005_originsage60rule.htm

What would you have wanted in 1958?

 

[808pilot]

http://www.theglobaledition.com/drone-pilot-ejects-from-office-chair/.

Hahahahaaaa... For the old guys...

 

[Flopgut]

Except when it's not.

https://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/magazine/2005/Jan2005_originsage60rule.htm

What would you have wanted in 1958?

About the time your link was printed, I was on here writing that any change made should only be to eliminate it. Anything else would be unethical as 60 and 65 are no different... Other than a small group of old guys take a windfall.

Your link indicates in 1958 there were 40 guys over 60 when the limit was first implemented. Seems to me they were a great deal more reasonable back then. It's not like ole CR asked for 55 so he could put hundreds (maybe) out of work, right? Age 65 in 2007 rendered multiple thousands unemployed/underemployed almost overnight. In a far worse economy no less.

 

[jonjuan]

Along with the possibility of delay comes the occurances of passengers/owners showing up early and demanding to go ASAP. Additionally, the pilots of corporate aircraft typically have many more responsibilities than walking through the door, turning left, and sitting down.

OK-loading bags and waiting with the pax for the limo to show.

 

[Whataburger]

Seems odd to not do something when the clock rolls over 0000 central.

Hmmm what to do.... +2

Argue about stuff?

Sitting around last nIght around mIdnight. Drinking and dreaming about the GeezerMeter Era of FI.

I think Whataburger needs to retire.

13 more retirements this yr.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Does anyone plan to retire early, at age 60?

 

[hammer2]

D
e
e
t
!

 

[surveypilot]

+3......

 

[pilotyip]

Does anyone plan to retire early, at age 60?

No I am looking at 75, maybe 80

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Since practically no one is retiring before age 65 (for any reason or to make room for the junior pilots as some have thought they should) and there have been no incidents or accidents related to pilots flying from age 60-65, it all proves positively that the age-60 coalition, especially here are FI, was speaking nothing but a bunch of hot air BS designed to kick senior pilots out of the seat that they spent a career of ups, downs and furloughs earning. Their method was exactly the same as kicking their grandparents out of their house and into assisted living. Makes no difference if the grandparents are healthy and spent a lifetime paying off their mortgage, the grandchildren are entitled to a nice house too, aren't they? The age-60 hotheads, just the same as the grandparents example, all feel they were entitled to the left seat and the house just the as the rest of the entitled generation thinks it's only right to take away from those who have earned something, and the give it to others, but preferable, themselves. What a disgrace this has been and it nearly destroyed all the pilot unions, which are the only hope for a decent airline job.

Now Col. Andy, has said many times that he will retire at age-60 no matter if the rule is upped to 65. He has given many reasons, but that was over 5-years ago. The truth is that he is just one of the entitled bunch that will say anything to advance themselves. I do wish him well in his career but how can anyone trust a man who has lied and lied on this issue just to take something from someone else? What kind of people is the AFA graduating anyway?

Right now, those who are working for a Part 121 airline should be thanking those who lobbied to change the law to age-65. That change gives everyone the opportunity to fly to age 65, or if they choose, to retire early. And the jury is in, almost everyone is choosing to fly to age 65, and so will all the others to follow. Are they grateful?

So where is the thanks from all you lucky guys?

 

[Flopgut]

Now Col. Andy, has said many times that he will retire at age-60 no matter if the rule is upped to 65. He has given many reasons, but that was over 5-years ago. The truth is that he is just one of the entitled bunch that will say anything to advance themselves.

Who are you to say such a thing Undaunted?! You proclaimed here multiple times that if the age changed and you missed the cut to keep your seniority, you would come back even without it. You had the opportunity to do exactly that, and you didn't!! BTW: What are you doing back here now? Oh, and Happy Birthday. I think you just had one, right? Additionally, I beleive we've had around 150 early retirements at CAL in recent memory. They happen Undaunted, more than you think. You don't hear anything about it because when they leave, that's it, they're gone. It's an unfortunate thing, but all we hear is the loud, bawling cry from all the old guys who feel they are a victim of retirement age instead of privileged to reach it. Personally, I don't go too long without reminding myself of those who have already retired and the example they set. You don't know what Andy will do, and you of all people should not speculate.

vtech asked me what I would have desired in 1958. I would like to know what an old pilot from 1958 would think about today's environment. Not just this profession, but this whole Country. Don't know if you saw it, but that Dr. Drew [Pinsky] guy spoke on the situation in this Country on Friday. I'm not a fan of his, but he made a good point on CNN. No one gets along anymore. At any level; Top to bottom. No one has any respect for process or rules and no one cares about the consequences others might endure as a result of their actions. Five years ago a bunch of old guys who didn't prepare themselves adequately and didn't manage difficult times well, decided it was their right to turn to retirement age and seize more time for themselves. Not unlike the "prepper" who thinks they are "prepped" by amassing a gun collection. They reason it's easier to take something than it is to be prepared. Who cares about everybody else? They just take whatever they need... That is not what this Country was like in 1958, right? Do you think the old guys who started out flying bonfire to bonfire in the early days of this profession would give you an "atta boy" now?

 

[Flopgut]

So where is the thanks from all you lucky guys?

There are 2173 UAL pilots who were furloughed as a result of your actions/inactions. That's just UAL...

Age 60, when implemented, put 40 guys out of work. Forty... TOTAL...

After the career you had, and what's happened to them so far, you think you ought to be getting on here and referring to them as "lucky"?

 

[imacdog]

Does anyone plan to retire early, at age 60?

Not sure why any current FO's would. To get the same number of years in the left seat as they would have before, they'll now be forced to fly to 65.

 

[flyboyike]

Not sure why any current FO's would. To get the same number of years in the left seat as they would have before, they'll now be forced to fly to 65.

I can't speak for others, but I'm not going past 60. There are several reasons for that, one of them moral, the others practical. I won't go into the moral one since my morals are my business, but the practical ones are pretty simple. I'm already 37, which means unless I get hired by a major in the next three years, the majors probably won't happen for me at all. So, the best case scenario for me is either a regional left seat until the regional in question gets decimated, like my previous one did, or, by some miracle, a narrowbody right seat at an LCC of some kind (again, only if I'm lucky). Well, there is nothing I can do in 28 years of that that I can't do in 23. So, really, the only reason for me to stay past 60 would be to deliberately be an obstacle in somebody else's way (kind of like the fossils of the past five years). Again, I can't speak for anyone else, but I got better things to do.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

There are 2173 UAL pilots who were furloughed as a result of your actions/inactions. That's just UAL...

Age 60, when implemented, put 40 guys out of work. Forty... TOTAL...

After the career you had, and what's happened to them so far, you think you ought to be getting on here and referring to them as "lucky"?

There are ups and downs in everyone's career. While you think I had such a great career, the fact is I flew sideways for 17-years, had 2 furloughs for a total of 4 years, 7-years as a F/O and 9-years as a captain. That isn't such a great career but that's the airline business.

Regarding the 2173 UAL pilots that were furloughed, age-60 had nothing to do with that as that was purely the result of the great UAL management and their decision to park all the B737 aircraft. Remember, they had just recalled all the pilots and had 100 new-hires and then BAM, let's furlough all the recalled pilots and the new-hires too, just to ruin many pilots lives. And yes, it ruined lives for sure. The fact here is that age-65 didn't cost any pilot their jobs here or anywhere else, jobs were lost by the economy, but it probably extended the recall of pilots. But in the end, every body can fly longer, if they wish. As for me, I lost my job on age 60. That was just he way it went. Luckily though I didn't lose anything on the market crash and then I re-invested my B-fund 100% in equities. That was a good move, made more on the market than I would have flying to age 65.

As for my coming back to UAL after the law changed, it just made no sense because as soon as I would have gotten back on the property, I would have been furloughed. I had had enough of that.

As for Col. Andy, why would he be any different than the thousands of others that don't retire at age 60. As a matter of fact, yes, there are a handful of those that retire early now, before age 65, but almost no one retires at age 60, as if that is some special date or age. People retire when they are ready. Isn't that great?

No, the jury is in and age 60 and the resistance from the unions, ANDY and others about safety and such has been proven to be pure BS for the purpose of kicking the grandparents out of their homes because it was the grand-kids turn to live in a nice house. Now they will have to do it the way everyone else does, they will earn their turn in the left seat, just like everybody else.

My best to all my friends at FI, and I know you will all be grateful for the work others have done to allow you and your colleagues to have a choice as to when you want to retire, instead of being forced to retire in the prime of your lives.

 

[PCL_128]

Burn in hell.

 

[flyboyike]

The fact here is that age-65 didn't cost any pilot their jobs here or anywhere else.

That is a lie.

 

[Turtle21]

Flame bait alert.

 

[bizicmo]

in 2008 there was going to be about 140ish retirements at CAL instead they had 140ish furloughs, think about that one for a minute.