121.505

[DC8 Flyer]

Anyone have access and can post any legal interps the feds may have on applying 121.505. The way I understand it, legal to start legal to finnish, is a leg by leg basis, not a full day(s) schedule.

 

[pianoman]

As far as I know the Whidlow (sp?) 16 hour duty day limit is applied on a leg-by-leg basis, meaning you can't start that last flight if you know you'll exceed 16 hours (with the debrief) based on expected taxi and flight time. The 8 hours max scheduled flying is a legal to start the day thing which is applied unless scheds has modified your day. (A diversion does not count; it is looked at as your originally scheduled trip.)

This is my airline's view.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

The 8 hour one, is the one I think there is a lot of "confusion" on. The regs use language like scheduled "flights". I take that to mean a leg by leg basis. If I have four, 2 hour legs scheduled, and at the end of leg 3 I have 6.1 hours on me, I can not legally do the last leg, since it is "scheduled" to put me over 8. This whole "legal to start, legal to finnish" I think, applies on a leg by leg basis, not a "day". No where in the regs (121, supplemental that is) does it state day or sequence, just "not to be scheduled for more than 8 hours of flight duty...)

 

[BusdrivnAce]

I agree with pianoman, i've done 10.2 hr days that end when I hit 16 hrs. duty. My crew sched uses the start of the day premis, and I have never heard of them being questioned. Supp may be different though, haven't even dreamed of looking at those regs.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Ive done the plus 8 hour block as well, but it was because all of my other flights were actually under block and more trips were added through the day. The last leg was "legal" because I had 7.2 on me, but the leg was only blocked for .6. Turned out to be a 1.5 hour leg and wammo over 8. Now if you go back and add up what the "original" schedules were it was something liek 10.5 hours.

What I am looking for is some kind of FAA interp that specifically says, legal to start legal to finnish applies to a day or to each specific leg. I don't eve know where to look for something like that.

 

[chperplt]

The rule hasn't changed..

Legal to start / Legal to finish is for your scheduled DAY.... Unless your schedule has been altered after the start of your day.

You can fly 10+ hours legally if you are on the same schedule you started the day with. Once your schedule changes from its original format, you then become LEG to LEG.

Whitlow has nothing to do with Legal to start / Legal to finish. Whitlow deals with minimum rest during a 24 hour period.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

The rule hasn't changed..

Legal to start / Legal to finish is for your scheduled DAY.... Unless your schedule has been altered after the start of your day.

You can fly 10+ hours legally if you are on the same schedule you started the day with. Once your schedule changes from its original format, you then become LEG to LEG.

Whitlow has nothing to do with Legal to start / Legal to finish. Whitlow deals with minimum rest during a 24 hour period.

Where is that spelled out though. I understand that is how some people interpret the rule but I cannot find a FAA interpret on it. I, and a I'm not alone, think that once you go over or under your scheduled block, that is a "change" to the schedule. And which schedule counts, the crew card block times or the flight plan scheduled time? There is no definition in the regs for "scheduled".

(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations , but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.

this is the part of the REG that gets me. It is basically saying you can depart on a leg if you know ahead of time conditions will not allow you to complete the leg with the the scheduled time. I take scheduled to mean flight plan time, not block time, since block time is an average time of the flight used by the company for pay, line building, etc and has too many variables to be a day to day "schedule". And the REGS make no reference to block times, just scheduled times. Personnally I have been taking off every flight where I would exceed 8 in a single duty period because of enroute delays and such and the last leg would put me over 8.

If anyone has any specific examples of themselves going over 8 in a single duty day where there has been no modification to your original schedule that would be great. It doesnt seem right, and I know that has little meaning anymore, that if I have two 4 hour flights blocked for the day, and the first leg ends up being 6.2 because of weather, deicing, etc, that I am legal to do the last leg. If it is the other way around, yup know problem, I was legal to start the leg (assuming it was flight planned for 4.0).

Again, any insight anyone has, not just this is how XYZ airline does it, but any FAA interps, NASA form stories, etc, would be great.

 

[chperplt]

Where is that spelled out though. I understand that is how some people interpret the rule but I cannot find a FAA interpret on it. I, and a I'm not alone, think that once you go over or under your scheduled block, that is a "change" to the schedule. And which schedule counts, the crew card block times or the flight plan scheduled time? There is no definition in the regs for "scheduled".

I don't have the legal opinion... Go to www.propilot.com and ask them for it. I can tell you for a fact that you and your friends are wrong. Going over or under your schedule block does not change your schedule. Having leg 2 of your day changed will change your schedule.

this is the part of the REG that gets me. It is basically saying you can depart on a leg if you know ahead of time conditions will not allow you to complete the leg with the the scheduled time. I take scheduled to mean flight plan time, not block time, since block time is an average time of the flight used by the company for pay, line building, etc and has too many variables to be a day to day "schedule". And the REGS make no reference to block times, just scheduled times. Personnally I have been taking off every flight where I would exceed 8 in a single duty period because of enroute delays and such and the last leg would put me over 8.

Once again you're incorrect. Don't take this offensively, but did you stay awake during indoc?? What airline do you work for that you can just take yourself off a flight because you think (incorrectly) that you're not legal?

Scheduled refers to BLOCK time, not actual time when dealing with daily flight time limitations. When you go to the propilot website, do a search for a letter United Airlines sent the FAA in the late 80s asking about non seasonal high winds. The FAA stated in that opinion that seasonal BLOCK time should be used, and that if a specific days flight plan carries the single leg which is normally done under 8 hours to go over 8 hours prior to departure, that flight was legal to depart.

If anyone has any specific examples of themselves going over 8 in a single duty day where there has been no modification to your original schedule that would be great. It doesnt seem right, and I know that has little meaning anymore, that if I have two 4 hour flights blocked for the day, and the first leg ends up being 6.2 because of weather, deicing, etc, that I am legal to do the last leg. If it is the other way around, yup know problem, I was legal to start the leg (assuming it was flight planned for 4.0).

I can't count the times I've gone over 8 hours in a single day when my 6 leg day carried me over. Like it or not, you're example is legal. If you feel it's too much for you, you can always call in fatigued.

Again, any insight anyone has, not just this is how XYZ airline does it, but any FAA interps, NASA form stories, etc, would be great.

This is not about what XYZ airline does. This is what the FAA mandates. Everyone should be doing it the same way as it's the same rule for everyone. I'm not blowing smoke up your tailpipe. I have extensive education on this very topic in the form of a Masters Thesis.

I routinely fly 2 leg days blocked at 7 hours and 20 minutes.. By your thought process, if leg 1 takes an extra 41 minutes, I've got to go to a hotel or ferry it back empty... Doesn't work that way.

If you're employed by a 121 airline, why don't you call your training department as ask for a review.

 

[CFIse]

Anyone have access and can post any legal interps the feds may have on applying 121.505. The way I understand it, legal to start legal to finnish, is a leg by leg basis, not a full day(s) schedule.

What part of 121.505 is unclear. It says "schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours" then blah, blah, blah about rest. So it's scheduled, not actual.

I doubt there is an interpretation, because it doesn't need interpreting.

 

[wings421]

Look at the ALPA FLIGHT TIME LIMITS. I don't have the link, but its a great resource and I'm sure that someone has the link.

 

[Skyboy722]

Yup, you are legal to start the DAY, legal to finish the DAY for everything (yearly, monthly, and daily block) except daily duty, which you must be legal to start the LEG.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

I think the confusion centers around the definition of "scheduled." There is dual definition in 121, but for our application of .505 it's a combination of the schedule the company publishes to the public (the proverbial holding out) and the scheduled assignment you receive when you show up for work. History has defined for the operator that a certain flight will average a certain period of time. Likewise, a certain group of flights (daily assignment) will take a certain amount of time to complete. Unless the company alters your assignment during the course of your work day, you are legal to complete your schedule as long as you had the required rest period prior to reporting for work, and you stay within your duty time limits for the day.

That's my story and I'm sticky because of it

 

[kevdog]

Yup, you are legal to start the DAY, legal to finish the DAY for everything (yearly, monthly, and daily block) except daily duty, which you must be legal to start the LEG.

I disagree with this. If you have 5 legs scheduled for 7:59, you are legal. However, if leg 4 has a 30 min hold, you are not legal to start leg 5 because you will be accepting a flight that will put you over 8 in 24, and without a proper interim rest period you are illegal. If leg 5 has a 30 min hold (all other legs normal), you are legal but then required to double your flight time in rest. Legal to start/legal to finish in my mind refers to each leg, not a scheduled day. If you are legal to start a leg, you are legal to finish a leg. The reference to United is not referring to supplemental ops.

 

[chperplt]

I disagree with this. If you have 5 legs scheduled for 7:59, you are legal. However, if leg 4 has a 30 min hold, you are not legal to start leg 5 because you will be accepting a flight that will put you over 8 in 24, and without a proper interim rest period you are illegal. If leg 5 has a 30 min hold (all other legs normal), you are legal but then required to double your flight time in rest. Legal to start/legal to finish in my mind refers to each leg, not a scheduled day. If you are legal to start a leg, you are legal to finish a leg. The reference to United is not referring to supplemental ops.

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

Chopper, loose the ********************ing attitude. Of course we were all awake in indoc, and you know what, it was explained to me just the way I have stated here. Obviously there is some kind of misinform somewhere because I'm not the only one, and there are plenty of guys with a hell of lot more experience than you and together think this way too.

The United letter was a good read, and gave some good insite to "scheduled" and such, but it did address the issue at hand here. It concerned a perceived schedule change because of flight plans immediately before a flight.

I am 99% sure I may be wrong in my thinking, but since both airlines I have worked at have gone by my train of though I am not 100% sure and I would like a FAA interp if there is one.

Again, no need for attitude, back up your argument with facts on point if available or personal situations, but leave the other crap at the door.

 

[regionalcap]

...........

 

[DC8 Flyer]

...........

Thanks for the link, that was very informative. However, it still does not address my original question. The last scenario in the letter talked about exceeding 8 hours in CVG as intermediate leg, and that pilot was required to be released for required rest.

Letter to Tom Kehmeier, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division (concluding that once the pilot has flown over 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours, section 121.503(b) rest is triggered and the pilot in the scenario presented who exceeded the 8 hour limit by 8 minutes at the time he landed at CVG, an intermediate leg, must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue on with the next flight)[2001-2] (copy enclosed). In a situation where a pilot exceeds 8 hours after take off, because of a circumstance beyond the certificate holder's control that develops during that flight leg, such as adverse weather, the certificate holder, as a matter of enforcement policy, would not be deemed to be in violation of the section 121.503(b) rest requirement. Upon landing, however, the pilot must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue with another flight.

Basically, a pilot was on a day of flying, went over 8 at an intermediate stop in his day of flying (although it doesn't state if he had a schedule change) and had to be released for 16 hours of rest. No one is in violation of course, but the pilot was over 8 and thus could not complete any more flights that day on his original schedule. That seems to fly in the face of the day to day legal to start legal to finnish argument.

This is still not exactly on point either, as it does not address going over on your first "4 hour scheduled leg" and then being legal to do your second schedule 4 hour leg. It does however show that even though you are scheduled legally at the start of the day, that once you go over 8, you cannot continue on.

Still not 100% convinced, but Im still 99% sure I may be reading all the legal mumbo jumbo wrong too.


edit
regionalcap deleted his post while I was typing mine, so the link went bye bye. Please repost the link RC, that was a good letter to read about flight times, please

 

[kevdog]

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

CHPERPLT -
Thanks for the info. I have worked for companies who also said there is no duty limit for domestic supp ops, 8 hrs rest constitutes a interim rest (regardless of flight time), you can be given a 1 in 7 without being notified, 2-3 interruptions from mother does not break rest, international flt # remains even if freight is loaded at a domestic int. station, and a myriad others. You have to watch out what the company tries to make you do.

We just got brand spankin new manuals which actually are extremely nice. Here's a paragraph out of our GOM:

"A flight or series of flights scheduled in accordance with the regulations can generally be continued, and the originally scheduled flights completed, even if a delay beyond the control of the company will result in the actual flight time exceeding the scheduled flight time."

I have to agree with you, however, I have yet to work for a cargo outfit who doesn't change the schedule all the time...voiding the original schedule. Without this new paragraph in our FAA stamped and approved manual, I would not accept a flight if I knew it would put me over 8/24 under normal ops. Anyway, I don't really fly domestic anymore. International regs are so much better!

 

[kevdog]

I have heard of a CD-ROM compiled by an aviation attorney that goes over precedent set by each FAR. It is expensive, but sounds really interesting. Anyone know anything more about this?

 

[regionalcap]

Sorry..thought I had posted the wrong link so that is why i edited it..here it is again...
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/interpretations/data/interps/2004/kania.rtf

 

[regionalcap]

One thing I didn't notice, but 121.505 relates to supplemental operations. Here is another link that deals with 121.471 (domestic operations).

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/1992/Schweitzer.rtf

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Hey Cap

Thanks for those links! Those two rulings seem to contradict each other. One says if you are over 8 at an intermediate leg, you must be released for rest, the next one says you can continue to the next leg even if you know you will go over 8. Maybe the legal to start legal to finnish applies as long as your total flight time is not greater than 8 hours at the end of any intermediate leg?

As far as supplemental, we still follow domestic and international rules, it just depends which "area" we are operating in, then it is the most restrictive that applies.

 

[chperplt]

No attitude at all DC8. I just don't understand how you, or anyone else for that matter, can be an active 121 pilot and be so confused by this. Not only confused, but state that you've refused a legal trip because of your confusion.

I have given you numerous examples of when I have personally flown over 8 hours and legally done so.

Have you gone to www.propilot.com and asked Doc, the FAR guru for a legal opinion on this?

Chopper, loose the ********************ing attitude. Of course we were all awake in indoc, and you know what, it was explained to me just the way I have stated here. Obviously there is some kind of misinform somewhere because I'm not the only one, and there are plenty of guys with a hell of lot more experience than you and together think this way too.

The United letter was a good read, and gave some good insite to "scheduled" and such, but it did address the issue at hand here. It concerned a perceived schedule change because of flight plans immediately before a flight.

I am 99% sure I may be wrong in my thinking, but since both airlines I have worked at have gone by my train of though I am not 100% sure and I would like a FAA interp if there is one.

Again, no need for attitude, back up your argument with facts on point if available or personal situations, but leave the other crap at the door.

 

[chperplt]

DC8

Keep in mind that supplimental 121 and domestic 121 run on two different sets of rules.

Also, you seem to be confusing rest limits with flight time limits. They are NOT one in the same. They are two completely different animals that have nothing to do with one another. They must both be used during the course of a day, but as specific limitations, they have nothing to do with one another.

Hey Cap

Thanks for those links! Those two rulings seem to contradict each other. One says if you are over 8 at an intermediate leg, you must be released for rest, the next one says you can continue to the next leg even if you know you will go over 8. Maybe the legal to start legal to finnish applies as long as your total flight time is not greater than 8 hours at the end of any intermediate leg?

As far as supplemental, we still follow domestic and international rules, it just depends which "area" we are operating in, then it is the most restrictive that applies.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Chopper

supplemental follows domestic and international rules, just depends which one we are "doing" at the time. Supplemental is basically different from a "normal" 121 op in that operation control is not a dispatcher but either the PIC or the DO, or both.

No confusion on rest limits at all. Read the letter I quoted, and apply the legal to start legal to finnish thought to it, it doesn't work, according to that letter. It says because the pilot had over 8 hours of actual flight time (not scheduled) when he landed at an intermediate stop (implying there were more legally scheduled legs) that he could not continue and must have at least 16 hours of rest. Just like if you flew 10 hours you must have 20 hours of rest.

The United letter does not apply here, since it is dealing with a single flight that is blocked under 8 but a revised flight plan shows it being more than 8 and the FAA is cool with that, because it was "reasonably" scheduled to be under 8 and "adverse" weather changed the actual planned time. I'm cool with that, and so is everyone else.

The crux of the problem for me, is since the FAA has stated you must be released after completing 8 hours of actual flying (first letter quoted) regardless of what your scheduled flight time. This throws a monkey wrench into everything, since none of the three letters from the FAA state specifically you can or cannot accept a flight that is blocked for an amount of time that will put you over 8, when looking back at your previous flight hours that day. Now, sinc the REGS are of a "permissive" nature, I would say that since none of the letters forbids it, than it is most likely legal. However, would you agree the first letter raises an interesting flag about legal to start legal to finnish?

 

[kevdog]

wait, who's Finnish?

 

[A Squared]

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

I stayed awake during Indoc. What I learned is that airline management will attempt to get away with feeding the pilots all sorts of bull******************** with no basis in reality regarding what is and is not allowed. The secondary lesson I learned is that you need to figure out on your own, from independent sources, what is legal and what is not because the company's take on regulations is frequently very conveninent for thier purposes, but often not terribly accurate. I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with you on the issue, but I am saying that "this is what they said in indoc" is a completely unpersuasive argument for legal matters.

 

[sbav8r]

The following is Doc's response to the same question.


I would like to make sure I understand the "legal to start, legal to finish" rule.
I have a 10 leg day which is blocked for 6hrs 55min. If I have a daily total of over 8hrs before starting leg 10, can I complete that leg legally? No changes have been made to my schedule during the day.
Again, just want to make sure I don't get myself in trouble.

Thanks
Randy

Randy,
FAR 121.471(g) allows you to complete the scheduled day's flying, but there are some conditions....
1. The flights must "normally" terminate within the limits (e.g. 8 hours of flight time between rest periods). This is an issue of "realistic scheduling".
2. The reason for exceeding the limit(s) (any of them -- daily, 7-day, monthly, yearly) must be beyond the control of the certificate holder. Most operational delays are "beyond the control", and the FAA has interpreted this to include adverse weather, adverse winds, passenger problems (e.g. late connections), and maintenance delays.
3. The pilot must not violate any of the REST requirements of FAR 121.471, as there is no relief granted to these rules, assuming that you have already used the maximum allowable reduced rest provisions. The relief granted in FAR 121.471(g) applies only to the FLIGHT TIME limitations. So you must look at how long you have been on duty with respect to your last rest period, the number of hours flown, and whether you are eligible for reduced rest. If you will violate these requirements by flying the last leg of the day, you cannot depart.
As you can see, "legal to start, legal to finish" is usually valid, if the day's flight schedule was realistically scheduled, and delays occurred that were beyond the control of the certificate holder. However, even though you may be legal to exceed the flight time limitations, the rest requirements may be the show-stopper.
I hope this helps!
Regards,
Doc
FAR 121.471(g):
(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.