121.505

[Skyboy722]

Yup, you are legal to start the DAY, legal to finish the DAY for everything (yearly, monthly, and daily block) except daily duty, which you must be legal to start the LEG.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

I think the confusion centers around the definition of "scheduled." There is dual definition in 121, but for our application of .505 it's a combination of the schedule the company publishes to the public (the proverbial holding out) and the scheduled assignment you receive when you show up for work. History has defined for the operator that a certain flight will average a certain period of time. Likewise, a certain group of flights (daily assignment) will take a certain amount of time to complete. Unless the company alters your assignment during the course of your work day, you are legal to complete your schedule as long as you had the required rest period prior to reporting for work, and you stay within your duty time limits for the day.

That's my story and I'm sticky because of it

 

[kevdog]

Yup, you are legal to start the DAY, legal to finish the DAY for everything (yearly, monthly, and daily block) except daily duty, which you must be legal to start the LEG.

I disagree with this. If you have 5 legs scheduled for 7:59, you are legal. However, if leg 4 has a 30 min hold, you are not legal to start leg 5 because you will be accepting a flight that will put you over 8 in 24, and without a proper interim rest period you are illegal. If leg 5 has a 30 min hold (all other legs normal), you are legal but then required to double your flight time in rest. Legal to start/legal to finish in my mind refers to each leg, not a scheduled day. If you are legal to start a leg, you are legal to finish a leg. The reference to United is not referring to supplemental ops.

 

[chperplt]

I disagree with this. If you have 5 legs scheduled for 7:59, you are legal. However, if leg 4 has a 30 min hold, you are not legal to start leg 5 because you will be accepting a flight that will put you over 8 in 24, and without a proper interim rest period you are illegal. If leg 5 has a 30 min hold (all other legs normal), you are legal but then required to double your flight time in rest. Legal to start/legal to finish in my mind refers to each leg, not a scheduled day. If you are legal to start a leg, you are legal to finish a leg. The reference to United is not referring to supplemental ops.

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

Chopper, loose the ********************ing attitude. Of course we were all awake in indoc, and you know what, it was explained to me just the way I have stated here. Obviously there is some kind of misinform somewhere because I'm not the only one, and there are plenty of guys with a hell of lot more experience than you and together think this way too.

The United letter was a good read, and gave some good insite to "scheduled" and such, but it did address the issue at hand here. It concerned a perceived schedule change because of flight plans immediately before a flight.

I am 99% sure I may be wrong in my thinking, but since both airlines I have worked at have gone by my train of though I am not 100% sure and I would like a FAA interp if there is one.

Again, no need for attitude, back up your argument with facts on point if available or personal situations, but leave the other crap at the door.

 

[regionalcap]

...........

 

[DC8 Flyer]

...........

Thanks for the link, that was very informative. However, it still does not address my original question. The last scenario in the letter talked about exceeding 8 hours in CVG as intermediate leg, and that pilot was required to be released for required rest.

Letter to Tom Kehmeier, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division (concluding that once the pilot has flown over 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours, section 121.503(b) rest is triggered and the pilot in the scenario presented who exceeded the 8 hour limit by 8 minutes at the time he landed at CVG, an intermediate leg, must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue on with the next flight)[2001-2] (copy enclosed). In a situation where a pilot exceeds 8 hours after take off, because of a circumstance beyond the certificate holder's control that develops during that flight leg, such as adverse weather, the certificate holder, as a matter of enforcement policy, would not be deemed to be in violation of the section 121.503(b) rest requirement. Upon landing, however, the pilot must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue with another flight.

Basically, a pilot was on a day of flying, went over 8 at an intermediate stop in his day of flying (although it doesn't state if he had a schedule change) and had to be released for 16 hours of rest. No one is in violation of course, but the pilot was over 8 and thus could not complete any more flights that day on his original schedule. That seems to fly in the face of the day to day legal to start legal to finnish argument.

This is still not exactly on point either, as it does not address going over on your first "4 hour scheduled leg" and then being legal to do your second schedule 4 hour leg. It does however show that even though you are scheduled legally at the start of the day, that once you go over 8, you cannot continue on.

Still not 100% convinced, but Im still 99% sure I may be reading all the legal mumbo jumbo wrong too.


edit
regionalcap deleted his post while I was typing mine, so the link went bye bye. Please repost the link RC, that was a good letter to read about flight times, please

 

[kevdog]

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

CHPERPLT -
Thanks for the info. I have worked for companies who also said there is no duty limit for domestic supp ops, 8 hrs rest constitutes a interim rest (regardless of flight time), you can be given a 1 in 7 without being notified, 2-3 interruptions from mother does not break rest, international flt # remains even if freight is loaded at a domestic int. station, and a myriad others. You have to watch out what the company tries to make you do.

We just got brand spankin new manuals which actually are extremely nice. Here's a paragraph out of our GOM:

"A flight or series of flights scheduled in accordance with the regulations can generally be continued, and the originally scheduled flights completed, even if a delay beyond the control of the company will result in the actual flight time exceeding the scheduled flight time."

I have to agree with you, however, I have yet to work for a cargo outfit who doesn't change the schedule all the time...voiding the original schedule. Without this new paragraph in our FAA stamped and approved manual, I would not accept a flight if I knew it would put me over 8/24 under normal ops. Anyway, I don't really fly domestic anymore. International regs are so much better!

 

[kevdog]

I have heard of a CD-ROM compiled by an aviation attorney that goes over precedent set by each FAR. It is expensive, but sounds really interesting. Anyone know anything more about this?

 

[regionalcap]

Sorry..thought I had posted the wrong link so that is why i edited it..here it is again...
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/interpretations/data/interps/2004/kania.rtf