121.505

[regionalcap]

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[DC8 Flyer]

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Thanks for the link, that was very informative. However, it still does not address my original question. The last scenario in the letter talked about exceeding 8 hours in CVG as intermediate leg, and that pilot was required to be released for required rest.

Letter to Tom Kehmeier, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division (concluding that once the pilot has flown over 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours, section 121.503(b) rest is triggered and the pilot in the scenario presented who exceeded the 8 hour limit by 8 minutes at the time he landed at CVG, an intermediate leg, must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue on with the next flight)[2001-2] (copy enclosed). In a situation where a pilot exceeds 8 hours after take off, because of a circumstance beyond the certificate holder's control that develops during that flight leg, such as adverse weather, the certificate holder, as a matter of enforcement policy, would not be deemed to be in violation of the section 121.503(b) rest requirement. Upon landing, however, the pilot must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue with another flight.

Basically, a pilot was on a day of flying, went over 8 at an intermediate stop in his day of flying (although it doesn't state if he had a schedule change) and had to be released for 16 hours of rest. No one is in violation of course, but the pilot was over 8 and thus could not complete any more flights that day on his original schedule. That seems to fly in the face of the day to day legal to start legal to finnish argument.

This is still not exactly on point either, as it does not address going over on your first "4 hour scheduled leg" and then being legal to do your second schedule 4 hour leg. It does however show that even though you are scheduled legally at the start of the day, that once you go over 8, you cannot continue on.

Still not 100% convinced, but Im still 99% sure I may be reading all the legal mumbo jumbo wrong too.


edit
regionalcap deleted his post while I was typing mine, so the link went bye bye. Please repost the link RC, that was a good letter to read about flight times, please

 

[kevdog]

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

CHPERPLT -
Thanks for the info. I have worked for companies who also said there is no duty limit for domestic supp ops, 8 hrs rest constitutes a interim rest (regardless of flight time), you can be given a 1 in 7 without being notified, 2-3 interruptions from mother does not break rest, international flt # remains even if freight is loaded at a domestic int. station, and a myriad others. You have to watch out what the company tries to make you do.

We just got brand spankin new manuals which actually are extremely nice. Here's a paragraph out of our GOM:

"A flight or series of flights scheduled in accordance with the regulations can generally be continued, and the originally scheduled flights completed, even if a delay beyond the control of the company will result in the actual flight time exceeding the scheduled flight time."

I have to agree with you, however, I have yet to work for a cargo outfit who doesn't change the schedule all the time...voiding the original schedule. Without this new paragraph in our FAA stamped and approved manual, I would not accept a flight if I knew it would put me over 8/24 under normal ops. Anyway, I don't really fly domestic anymore. International regs are so much better!

 

[kevdog]

I have heard of a CD-ROM compiled by an aviation attorney that goes over precedent set by each FAR. It is expensive, but sounds really interesting. Anyone know anything more about this?

 

[regionalcap]

Sorry..thought I had posted the wrong link so that is why i edited it..here it is again...
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/interpretations/data/interps/2004/kania.rtf

 

[regionalcap]

One thing I didn't notice, but 121.505 relates to supplemental operations. Here is another link that deals with 121.471 (domestic operations).

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/1992/Schweitzer.rtf

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Hey Cap

Thanks for those links! Those two rulings seem to contradict each other. One says if you are over 8 at an intermediate leg, you must be released for rest, the next one says you can continue to the next leg even if you know you will go over 8. Maybe the legal to start legal to finnish applies as long as your total flight time is not greater than 8 hours at the end of any intermediate leg?

As far as supplemental, we still follow domestic and international rules, it just depends which "area" we are operating in, then it is the most restrictive that applies.

 

[chperplt]

No attitude at all DC8. I just don't understand how you, or anyone else for that matter, can be an active 121 pilot and be so confused by this. Not only confused, but state that you've refused a legal trip because of your confusion.

I have given you numerous examples of when I have personally flown over 8 hours and legally done so.

Have you gone to www.propilot.com and asked Doc, the FAR guru for a legal opinion on this?

Chopper, loose the ********************ing attitude. Of course we were all awake in indoc, and you know what, it was explained to me just the way I have stated here. Obviously there is some kind of misinform somewhere because I'm not the only one, and there are plenty of guys with a hell of lot more experience than you and together think this way too.

The United letter was a good read, and gave some good insite to "scheduled" and such, but it did address the issue at hand here. It concerned a perceived schedule change because of flight plans immediately before a flight.

I am 99% sure I may be wrong in my thinking, but since both airlines I have worked at have gone by my train of though I am not 100% sure and I would like a FAA interp if there is one.

Again, no need for attitude, back up your argument with facts on point if available or personal situations, but leave the other crap at the door.

 

[chperplt]

DC8

Keep in mind that supplimental 121 and domestic 121 run on two different sets of rules.

Also, you seem to be confusing rest limits with flight time limits. They are NOT one in the same. They are two completely different animals that have nothing to do with one another. They must both be used during the course of a day, but as specific limitations, they have nothing to do with one another.

Hey Cap

Thanks for those links! Those two rulings seem to contradict each other. One says if you are over 8 at an intermediate leg, you must be released for rest, the next one says you can continue to the next leg even if you know you will go over 8. Maybe the legal to start legal to finnish applies as long as your total flight time is not greater than 8 hours at the end of any intermediate leg?

As far as supplemental, we still follow domestic and international rules, it just depends which "area" we are operating in, then it is the most restrictive that applies.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Chopper

supplemental follows domestic and international rules, just depends which one we are "doing" at the time. Supplemental is basically different from a "normal" 121 op in that operation control is not a dispatcher but either the PIC or the DO, or both.

No confusion on rest limits at all. Read the letter I quoted, and apply the legal to start legal to finnish thought to it, it doesn't work, according to that letter. It says because the pilot had over 8 hours of actual flight time (not scheduled) when he landed at an intermediate stop (implying there were more legally scheduled legs) that he could not continue and must have at least 16 hours of rest. Just like if you flew 10 hours you must have 20 hours of rest.

The United letter does not apply here, since it is dealing with a single flight that is blocked under 8 but a revised flight plan shows it being more than 8 and the FAA is cool with that, because it was "reasonably" scheduled to be under 8 and "adverse" weather changed the actual planned time. I'm cool with that, and so is everyone else.

The crux of the problem for me, is since the FAA has stated you must be released after completing 8 hours of actual flying (first letter quoted) regardless of what your scheduled flight time. This throws a monkey wrench into everything, since none of the three letters from the FAA state specifically you can or cannot accept a flight that is blocked for an amount of time that will put you over 8, when looking back at your previous flight hours that day. Now, sinc the REGS are of a "permissive" nature, I would say that since none of the letters forbids it, than it is most likely legal. However, would you agree the first letter raises an interesting flag about legal to start legal to finnish?

 

[kevdog]

wait, who's Finnish?

 

[A Squared]

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

I stayed awake during Indoc. What I learned is that airline management will attempt to get away with feeding the pilots all sorts of bull******************** with no basis in reality regarding what is and is not allowed. The secondary lesson I learned is that you need to figure out on your own, from independent sources, what is legal and what is not because the company's take on regulations is frequently very conveninent for thier purposes, but often not terribly accurate. I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with you on the issue, but I am saying that "this is what they said in indoc" is a completely unpersuasive argument for legal matters.

 

[sbav8r]

The following is Doc's response to the same question.


I would like to make sure I understand the "legal to start, legal to finish" rule.
I have a 10 leg day which is blocked for 6hrs 55min. If I have a daily total of over 8hrs before starting leg 10, can I complete that leg legally? No changes have been made to my schedule during the day.
Again, just want to make sure I don't get myself in trouble.

Thanks
Randy

Randy,
FAR 121.471(g) allows you to complete the scheduled day's flying, but there are some conditions....
1. The flights must "normally" terminate within the limits (e.g. 8 hours of flight time between rest periods). This is an issue of "realistic scheduling".
2. The reason for exceeding the limit(s) (any of them -- daily, 7-day, monthly, yearly) must be beyond the control of the certificate holder. Most operational delays are "beyond the control", and the FAA has interpreted this to include adverse weather, adverse winds, passenger problems (e.g. late connections), and maintenance delays.
3. The pilot must not violate any of the REST requirements of FAR 121.471, as there is no relief granted to these rules, assuming that you have already used the maximum allowable reduced rest provisions. The relief granted in FAR 121.471(g) applies only to the FLIGHT TIME limitations. So you must look at how long you have been on duty with respect to your last rest period, the number of hours flown, and whether you are eligible for reduced rest. If you will violate these requirements by flying the last leg of the day, you cannot depart.
As you can see, "legal to start, legal to finish" is usually valid, if the day's flight schedule was realistically scheduled, and delays occurred that were beyond the control of the certificate holder. However, even though you may be legal to exceed the flight time limitations, the rest requirements may be the show-stopper.
I hope this helps!
Regards,
Doc
FAR 121.471(g):
(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.