121.505

[DC8 Flyer]

Anyone have access and can post any legal interps the feds may have on applying 121.505. The way I understand it, legal to start legal to finnish, is a leg by leg basis, not a full day(s) schedule.

 

[pianoman]

As far as I know the Whidlow (sp?) 16 hour duty day limit is applied on a leg-by-leg basis, meaning you can't start that last flight if you know you'll exceed 16 hours (with the debrief) based on expected taxi and flight time. The 8 hours max scheduled flying is a legal to start the day thing which is applied unless scheds has modified your day. (A diversion does not count; it is looked at as your originally scheduled trip.)

This is my airline's view.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

The 8 hour one, is the one I think there is a lot of "confusion" on. The regs use language like scheduled "flights". I take that to mean a leg by leg basis. If I have four, 2 hour legs scheduled, and at the end of leg 3 I have 6.1 hours on me, I can not legally do the last leg, since it is "scheduled" to put me over 8. This whole "legal to start, legal to finnish" I think, applies on a leg by leg basis, not a "day". No where in the regs (121, supplemental that is) does it state day or sequence, just "not to be scheduled for more than 8 hours of flight duty...)

 

[BusdrivnAce]

I agree with pianoman, i've done 10.2 hr days that end when I hit 16 hrs. duty. My crew sched uses the start of the day premis, and I have never heard of them being questioned. Supp may be different though, haven't even dreamed of looking at those regs.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Ive done the plus 8 hour block as well, but it was because all of my other flights were actually under block and more trips were added through the day. The last leg was "legal" because I had 7.2 on me, but the leg was only blocked for .6. Turned out to be a 1.5 hour leg and wammo over 8. Now if you go back and add up what the "original" schedules were it was something liek 10.5 hours.

What I am looking for is some kind of FAA interp that specifically says, legal to start legal to finnish applies to a day or to each specific leg. I don't eve know where to look for something like that.

 

[chperplt]

The rule hasn't changed..

Legal to start / Legal to finish is for your scheduled DAY.... Unless your schedule has been altered after the start of your day.

You can fly 10+ hours legally if you are on the same schedule you started the day with. Once your schedule changes from its original format, you then become LEG to LEG.

Whitlow has nothing to do with Legal to start / Legal to finish. Whitlow deals with minimum rest during a 24 hour period.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

The rule hasn't changed..

Legal to start / Legal to finish is for your scheduled DAY.... Unless your schedule has been altered after the start of your day.

You can fly 10+ hours legally if you are on the same schedule you started the day with. Once your schedule changes from its original format, you then become LEG to LEG.

Whitlow has nothing to do with Legal to start / Legal to finish. Whitlow deals with minimum rest during a 24 hour period.

Where is that spelled out though. I understand that is how some people interpret the rule but I cannot find a FAA interpret on it. I, and a I'm not alone, think that once you go over or under your scheduled block, that is a "change" to the schedule. And which schedule counts, the crew card block times or the flight plan scheduled time? There is no definition in the regs for "scheduled".

(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations , but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.

this is the part of the REG that gets me. It is basically saying you can depart on a leg if you know ahead of time conditions will not allow you to complete the leg with the the scheduled time. I take scheduled to mean flight plan time, not block time, since block time is an average time of the flight used by the company for pay, line building, etc and has too many variables to be a day to day "schedule". And the REGS make no reference to block times, just scheduled times. Personnally I have been taking off every flight where I would exceed 8 in a single duty period because of enroute delays and such and the last leg would put me over 8.

If anyone has any specific examples of themselves going over 8 in a single duty day where there has been no modification to your original schedule that would be great. It doesnt seem right, and I know that has little meaning anymore, that if I have two 4 hour flights blocked for the day, and the first leg ends up being 6.2 because of weather, deicing, etc, that I am legal to do the last leg. If it is the other way around, yup know problem, I was legal to start the leg (assuming it was flight planned for 4.0).

Again, any insight anyone has, not just this is how XYZ airline does it, but any FAA interps, NASA form stories, etc, would be great.

 

[chperplt]

Where is that spelled out though. I understand that is how some people interpret the rule but I cannot find a FAA interpret on it. I, and a I'm not alone, think that once you go over or under your scheduled block, that is a "change" to the schedule. And which schedule counts, the crew card block times or the flight plan scheduled time? There is no definition in the regs for "scheduled".

I don't have the legal opinion... Go to www.propilot.com and ask them for it. I can tell you for a fact that you and your friends are wrong. Going over or under your schedule block does not change your schedule. Having leg 2 of your day changed will change your schedule.

this is the part of the REG that gets me. It is basically saying you can depart on a leg if you know ahead of time conditions will not allow you to complete the leg with the the scheduled time. I take scheduled to mean flight plan time, not block time, since block time is an average time of the flight used by the company for pay, line building, etc and has too many variables to be a day to day "schedule". And the REGS make no reference to block times, just scheduled times. Personnally I have been taking off every flight where I would exceed 8 in a single duty period because of enroute delays and such and the last leg would put me over 8.

Once again you're incorrect. Don't take this offensively, but did you stay awake during indoc?? What airline do you work for that you can just take yourself off a flight because you think (incorrectly) that you're not legal?

Scheduled refers to BLOCK time, not actual time when dealing with daily flight time limitations. When you go to the propilot website, do a search for a letter United Airlines sent the FAA in the late 80s asking about non seasonal high winds. The FAA stated in that opinion that seasonal BLOCK time should be used, and that if a specific days flight plan carries the single leg which is normally done under 8 hours to go over 8 hours prior to departure, that flight was legal to depart.

If anyone has any specific examples of themselves going over 8 in a single duty day where there has been no modification to your original schedule that would be great. It doesnt seem right, and I know that has little meaning anymore, that if I have two 4 hour flights blocked for the day, and the first leg ends up being 6.2 because of weather, deicing, etc, that I am legal to do the last leg. If it is the other way around, yup know problem, I was legal to start the leg (assuming it was flight planned for 4.0).

I can't count the times I've gone over 8 hours in a single day when my 6 leg day carried me over. Like it or not, you're example is legal. If you feel it's too much for you, you can always call in fatigued.

Again, any insight anyone has, not just this is how XYZ airline does it, but any FAA interps, NASA form stories, etc, would be great.

This is not about what XYZ airline does. This is what the FAA mandates. Everyone should be doing it the same way as it's the same rule for everyone. I'm not blowing smoke up your tailpipe. I have extensive education on this very topic in the form of a Masters Thesis.

I routinely fly 2 leg days blocked at 7 hours and 20 minutes.. By your thought process, if leg 1 takes an extra 41 minutes, I've got to go to a hotel or ferry it back empty... Doesn't work that way.

If you're employed by a 121 airline, why don't you call your training department as ask for a review.

 

[CFIse]

Anyone have access and can post any legal interps the feds may have on applying 121.505. The way I understand it, legal to start legal to finnish, is a leg by leg basis, not a full day(s) schedule.

What part of 121.505 is unclear. It says "schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours" then blah, blah, blah about rest. So it's scheduled, not actual.

I doubt there is an interpretation, because it doesn't need interpreting.

 

[wings421]

Look at the ALPA FLIGHT TIME LIMITS. I don't have the link, but its a great resource and I'm sure that someone has the link.

 

[Skyboy722]

Yup, you are legal to start the DAY, legal to finish the DAY for everything (yearly, monthly, and daily block) except daily duty, which you must be legal to start the LEG.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

I think the confusion centers around the definition of "scheduled." There is dual definition in 121, but for our application of .505 it's a combination of the schedule the company publishes to the public (the proverbial holding out) and the scheduled assignment you receive when you show up for work. History has defined for the operator that a certain flight will average a certain period of time. Likewise, a certain group of flights (daily assignment) will take a certain amount of time to complete. Unless the company alters your assignment during the course of your work day, you are legal to complete your schedule as long as you had the required rest period prior to reporting for work, and you stay within your duty time limits for the day.

That's my story and I'm sticky because of it

 

[kevdog]

Yup, you are legal to start the DAY, legal to finish the DAY for everything (yearly, monthly, and daily block) except daily duty, which you must be legal to start the LEG.

I disagree with this. If you have 5 legs scheduled for 7:59, you are legal. However, if leg 4 has a 30 min hold, you are not legal to start leg 5 because you will be accepting a flight that will put you over 8 in 24, and without a proper interim rest period you are illegal. If leg 5 has a 30 min hold (all other legs normal), you are legal but then required to double your flight time in rest. Legal to start/legal to finish in my mind refers to each leg, not a scheduled day. If you are legal to start a leg, you are legal to finish a leg. The reference to United is not referring to supplemental ops.

 

[chperplt]

I disagree with this. If you have 5 legs scheduled for 7:59, you are legal. However, if leg 4 has a 30 min hold, you are not legal to start leg 5 because you will be accepting a flight that will put you over 8 in 24, and without a proper interim rest period you are illegal. If leg 5 has a 30 min hold (all other legs normal), you are legal but then required to double your flight time in rest. Legal to start/legal to finish in my mind refers to each leg, not a scheduled day. If you are legal to start a leg, you are legal to finish a leg. The reference to United is not referring to supplemental ops.

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

Chopper, loose the ********************ing attitude. Of course we were all awake in indoc, and you know what, it was explained to me just the way I have stated here. Obviously there is some kind of misinform somewhere because I'm not the only one, and there are plenty of guys with a hell of lot more experience than you and together think this way too.

The United letter was a good read, and gave some good insite to "scheduled" and such, but it did address the issue at hand here. It concerned a perceived schedule change because of flight plans immediately before a flight.

I am 99% sure I may be wrong in my thinking, but since both airlines I have worked at have gone by my train of though I am not 100% sure and I would like a FAA interp if there is one.

Again, no need for attitude, back up your argument with facts on point if available or personal situations, but leave the other crap at the door.

 

[regionalcap]

...........

 

[DC8 Flyer]

...........

Thanks for the link, that was very informative. However, it still does not address my original question. The last scenario in the letter talked about exceeding 8 hours in CVG as intermediate leg, and that pilot was required to be released for required rest.

Letter to Tom Kehmeier, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division (concluding that once the pilot has flown over 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours, section 121.503(b) rest is triggered and the pilot in the scenario presented who exceeded the 8 hour limit by 8 minutes at the time he landed at CVG, an intermediate leg, must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue on with the next flight)[2001-2] (copy enclosed). In a situation where a pilot exceeds 8 hours after take off, because of a circumstance beyond the certificate holder's control that develops during that flight leg, such as adverse weather, the certificate holder, as a matter of enforcement policy, would not be deemed to be in violation of the section 121.503(b) rest requirement. Upon landing, however, the pilot must be given 16 hours of rest before he may continue with another flight.

Basically, a pilot was on a day of flying, went over 8 at an intermediate stop in his day of flying (although it doesn't state if he had a schedule change) and had to be released for 16 hours of rest. No one is in violation of course, but the pilot was over 8 and thus could not complete any more flights that day on his original schedule. That seems to fly in the face of the day to day legal to start legal to finnish argument.

This is still not exactly on point either, as it does not address going over on your first "4 hour scheduled leg" and then being legal to do your second schedule 4 hour leg. It does however show that even though you are scheduled legally at the start of the day, that once you go over 8, you cannot continue on.

Still not 100% convinced, but Im still 99% sure I may be reading all the legal mumbo jumbo wrong too.


edit
regionalcap deleted his post while I was typing mine, so the link went bye bye. Please repost the link RC, that was a good letter to read about flight times, please

 

[kevdog]

Kevdog,

Sorry...You're incorrect.

I don't understand why there is so much confusion here. Some of you need to go back to indoc and stay awake.

Legal to start legal to finish (day) is on a DAILY SCHEDULE basis and NOT a leg to leg basis provided your SCHEDULE doesn't change.

CHPERPLT -
Thanks for the info. I have worked for companies who also said there is no duty limit for domestic supp ops, 8 hrs rest constitutes a interim rest (regardless of flight time), you can be given a 1 in 7 without being notified, 2-3 interruptions from mother does not break rest, international flt # remains even if freight is loaded at a domestic int. station, and a myriad others. You have to watch out what the company tries to make you do.

We just got brand spankin new manuals which actually are extremely nice. Here's a paragraph out of our GOM:

"A flight or series of flights scheduled in accordance with the regulations can generally be continued, and the originally scheduled flights completed, even if a delay beyond the control of the company will result in the actual flight time exceeding the scheduled flight time."

I have to agree with you, however, I have yet to work for a cargo outfit who doesn't change the schedule all the time...voiding the original schedule. Without this new paragraph in our FAA stamped and approved manual, I would not accept a flight if I knew it would put me over 8/24 under normal ops. Anyway, I don't really fly domestic anymore. International regs are so much better!

 

[kevdog]

I have heard of a CD-ROM compiled by an aviation attorney that goes over precedent set by each FAR. It is expensive, but sounds really interesting. Anyone know anything more about this?

 

[regionalcap]

Sorry..thought I had posted the wrong link so that is why i edited it..here it is again...
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/interpretations/data/interps/2004/kania.rtf