12 Hour Duty Day for TRAIN CONDUCTORS?!

[brokeflyer]

Be careful what you wish for....A 12 hour duty day would most likely result in more days at work and more nights away from home.....

no...only if you allow them to do it. This should cause a dramatic increase in ticket prices because more pilots will needed.

that is good.

 

[veneratio]

Be careful what you wish for....A 12 hour duty day would most likely result in more days at work and more nights away from home.....

Perhaps, but it's safer and therefore needs to be done.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Perhaps, but it's safer and therefore needs to be done.

An 8 hour duty day would be even safer...should we do that? What's so "safe" about 12 hours vs. 14 hours? At what point does it become "dangerous"? Spending more nights away from home is stressful and fatiguing also...something to think about....

 

[johndt]

$.02 from my current experience -- I can't get fewer days off than I'm getting right now (contractually), so...

 

[Dornier 335]

I posted it here before, not sure exactly where. Take a look at some EU legacy or national carriers and you'd be surprised how many days off / month they get. Be careful what you wish for. If you're really brave, ask a BA, KLM, Lufty, AF etc. flight crew when you take a walk in the intl concourse.

 

[Nevets]

An 8 hour duty day would be even safer...should we do that? What's so "safe" about 12 hours vs. 14 hours? At what point does it become "dangerous"? Spending more nights away from home is stressful and fatiguing also...something to think about....

At what point? I don't know but there have been some scientific studies about this. I'm sure they shed some light on that question. From what I understand, the rules will take that scientific studies into account.

Maybe you can offset the possibility of less pay with being able to be scheduled up to 9 or 10 hours, for example, between duty days while still meeting the 12 or 14 hour duty day mandate. I don't really know.

Anyways, at XJT, they are not allowed to build trips with duty days in excess of 13.5 hours (11 hours for those trips that are scheduled between 2101 - 0429 LT). I personally have never seen a duty day scheduled for more than 12.5 hours. So I don't know how much of an impact a 12 hour duty day mandate would have at XJT at least. There maybe other places where their contracts already mandate shorter duty days and therefore may lessen the impact.

 

[brokeflyer]

I posted it here before, not sure exactly where. Take a look at some EU legacy or national carriers and you'd be surprised how many days off / month they get. Be careful what you wish for. If you're really brave, ask a BA, KLM, Lufty, AF etc. flight crew when you take a walk in the intl concourse.

Fine, then you go fly tired. Just do it when im off cause i dont wanan be up there with you flying arounf tired making mistakes.

one problem at a time.....right now that problem is duty hours.

Next year the problem will be how is management gonna try to get us to work more. And you know what? we'll win that one too as long as all the fck ups keep their mouths shut.

 

[Dornier 335]

easy bubba ...

Fine, then you go fly tired. Just do it when im off cause i dont wanan be up there with you flying arounf tired making mistakes.

one problem at a time.....right now that problem is duty hours.

Next year the problem will be how is management gonna try to get us to work more. And you know what? we'll win that one too as long as all the fck ups keep their mouths shut.

Dude, don't put words in my mouth I did not use! I'm just suggesting what the consequences are going to be. As for me, I don't fly tired.

 

[OurMoney1]

Be careful what you wish for....A 12 hour duty day would most likely result in more days at work and more nights away from home.....

Bingo.......for all the people drivers you are going to strain productivity to comply with this type of legislation. Be cautious about this one.....it may end up costing you in the long run.

 

[Nevets]

Bingo.......for all the people drivers you are going to strain productivity to comply with this type of legislation. Be cautious about this one.....it may end up costing you in the long run.

Costing what? Saved lives?

 

[OurMoney1]

Costing what? Saved lives?

Its simple you call fatigued if your schedule is too much. When enough pilots do it the airline responds by tailoring schedules rathering than cancelling flights.

Dont let Washington legislate your productivity into the ground. Use the tools you already have unless you look forward to whining about your 10 days off a month.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Costing what? Saved lives?

Is that what caused the Colgan crash? Is that what caused the PCL crash?

How about ALPA defending screw ups on a regular basis....Is that "safe"? How about using regional cockpits as a "training job"? Where was ALPA on that....heck they even back the MPL....

I don't have a death wish and if I can't perform, I will take myself off the trip....Lowering the duty day is going to increase the days away from home which is going to be stressful for people and increase their fatigue...Lot's of things cause fatigue....not just rest and duty day.....I for one am tired with early duty ins....no matter what....I deal with it because it comes with the job....If I don't like it, I can find something else to do....

As I asked before....why not make the limit 8 hours of duty...That would be less fatiguing wouldn't it? If safety is absolute as you seem to make it, then we should only have 8 hour, or 10 hour duty days like everyone else.....Right?

I don't need the federal govt. dictating my safety...I can take care of myself.....The "cure" is going to make things worse IMO.....

 

[73belair]

Is that what caused the Colgan crash? Is that what caused the PCL crash?

How about ALPA defending screw ups on a regular basis....Is that "safe"? How about using regional cockpits as a "training job"? Where was ALPA on that....heck they even back the MPL....

I don't have a death wish and if I can't perform, I will take myself off the trip....Lowering the duty day is going to increase the days away from home which is going to be stressful for people and increase their fatigue...Lot's of things cause fatigue....not just rest and duty day.....I for one am tired with early duty ins....no matter what....I deal with it because it comes with the job....If I don't like it, I can find something else to do....

As I asked before....why not make the limit 8 hours of duty...That would be less fatiguing wouldn't it? If safety is absolute as you seem to make it, then we should only have 8 hour, or 10 hour duty days like everyone else.....Right?

I don't need the federal govt. dictating my safety...I can take care of myself.....The "cure" is going to make things worse IMO.....

I think the point of all of the studies is that when you get tired you don't think you are. (I know you've been at ASA a while, but some things have changed since the 60s.) Then you have the attitude that you just described. "I deal with it because it comes with the job....If I don't like it, I can find something else to do...."
However, not just colgan or pcl, but historically fatigue is a huge factor for pilots. What you just stated is one of the most basic things learned in flight school as a no, no.

Safety is not an absolute. There is profit and business involved. No one said that it was absolute other than you. People just stated that 12 hrs is plenty of work for anyone, let alone 2 people who have to deal with the range of factors that can be any "normal" day for a pilot.

Your own points in the above:

"I don't have a death wish and if I can't perform, I will take myself off the trip"
"I for one am tired with early duty ins....no matter what....I deal with it because it comes with the job"

Which is it?