“insanity squared”

[MJ42]

Didn't someone post about forming a "guild"? Whereby, you start at the bottom of the list at your new employer but are paid based on experience. Interesting concept.

Cheers- Rum

Yep, on some other thread but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Many problems for a national seniority list that can not be overcome. Some were mentioned on the other thread. However one that was not mentioned...would it be DOH at a 121 carrier? If so, ain't no way in hell a mid to late 90's PFT'er hire is going to be senior to those of us that didn't sell out.

How would that be solved? No way a PFT'er should benefit from buying a job.

Seems like the 2 guys on this thread calling for the national list are from ASA, a major player(along with Comair) in the PFT days.

CFI2766 wrote:
"Welll, why not?"
__________________
-Glenn

Well, above is one of many reasons. You may be too young to remember but many of us struggled to find a CFI job during this period. Was a bad time to break into the industry unless you got money from Mommy and Daddy. "Commuters" knew this and used it to their advantage in a scam.

 

[Donald]

Just pointing out the Fox rarely paints business or executives in a bad light. And a lot of people watch Fox to the exclusion of other news outlets.

Trying to turn the lights on is all.

I've seen them slam quite a few execs. Besides, I got tired of the excessive liberal slant at the other news outlets. Fox has a little liberal slant, just not as much.

 

[atrdriver]

Seems like the 2 guys on this thread calling for the national list are from ASA, a major player(along with Comair) in the PFT days.

CFI2766 wrote:
"Welll, why not?"
__________________

For the record, I was ASA, now CAL. But what you said shows the short-sightedness of this profession, and the exact reason that those high paid executives are laughing at us. You can't get past PFT, whether right or wrong, to strengthen the profession as a whole. Like I said, no wonder they are laughing at us all the way to the bank.

 

[Flybywire44]

You know this country had labor riots before and we had labor reform. Wonder how many more decades it will take for CEO compensation to become a centralized issue for airline investors.

I wonder how regulation would affect CEO pay...

 

[MJ42]

For the record, I was ASA, now CAL. But what you said shows the short-sightedness of this profession, and the exact reason that those high paid executives are laughing at us. You can't get past PFT, whether right or wrong, to strengthen the profession as a whole. Like I said, no wonder they are laughing at us all the way to the bank.

For the record, were you a PFT'er?...yes or no. Not that it matters so much but just cause you're at CAL now doesn't mean you weren't a PFT. If you're not, your concept would really hurt YOUR seniority.

I think the short sighted guys were those selfish enough to try to get ahead by buying a job. I have no problem with the national list concept, just the implementation. I guess those execs you're talking about were the same ones laughing back in the day as they were cashing those $10k checks from sellouts.

I just asked the question why they(PFT) should currently benefit from a national list. What's your answer? I'm not trying to get on your case, just want to understand your side.

And, BTW, being concerned about seniority is very important. It should not be able to be bought, I'm obviously in a position where unfortunately that could happen to me and it's out of my control.

 

[atrdriver]

For the record, were you a PFT'er?...yes or no. Not that it matters so much but just cause you're at CAL now doesn't mean you weren't a PFT. If you're not, your concept would really hurt YOUR seniority.

I think the short sighted guys were those selfish enough to try to get ahead by buying a job. I have no problem with the national list concept, just the implementation. I guess those execs you're talking about were the same ones laughing back in the day as they were cashing those $10k checks from sellouts.

I just asked the question why they(PFT) should currently benefit from a national list. What's your answer? I'm not trying to get on your case, just want to understand your side.

And, BTW, being concerned about seniority is very important. It should not be able to be bought, I'm obviously in a position where unfortunately that could happen to me and it's out of my control.

Yes, I was PFT at ASA. In the mid to late 90's, if you wanted a regional job, in one way or another you were probably PFT. For that matter so is SWA. So what? So penalize everyone who PFTd a few years when you put the national list together. Being short sighted hasn't gotten us anywhere, just ask the USAir east guys. If you want this profession to get back to where it once was, then you need to look past the petty bickering and look at the long term view. Or we can just bury our heads in the sand and hope all the problems go away and management suddenly decides to give us what we are due....

Personally, as far as the implementation goes, I would make their seniority the date they got their ATP, or their Captain's upgrade, whichever came later, at their first 121 airline. That is for people who are already here. Everyone new goes on their DOH at their first 121 airline, and for those who have not yet upgraded but already work for a 121 carrier they would get their actual DOH.

But I am willing to look at the long term view, and not allow my dislikes of certain people or certain classes of people affect my judgment on what will be my career for years to come. Maybe you are not.

 

[MJ42]

Yes, I was PFT at ASA. In the mid to late 90's, if you wanted a regional job, in one way or another you were probably PFT. For that matter so is SWA. So what? So penalize everyone who PFTd a few years when you put the national list together. Being short sighted hasn't gotten us anywhere, just ask the USAir east guys. If you want this profession to get back to where it once was, then you need to look past the petty bickering and look at the long term view. Or we can just bury our heads in the sand and hope all the problems go away and management suddenly decides to give us what we are due....

Personally, as far as the implementation goes, I would make their seniority the date they got their ATP, or their Captain's upgrade, whichever came later, at their first 121 airline. That is for people who are already here. Everyone new goes on their DOH at their first 121 airline, and for those who have not yet upgraded but already work for a 121 carrier they would get their actual DOH.

But I am willing to look at the long term view, and not allow my dislikes of certain people or certain classes of people affect my judgment on what will be my career for years to come. Maybe you are not.

Too bad you didn't realize that as you were forking over that check for that "coveted" regional job while thousands of us struggled to find any student who wanted to learn to fly.

Your theory on ATP...not good enough. I think it should go by date you got your commercial MEL or, if Military, the date you got your wings. That would weed out the PFT advantage(which by the way is years of an advantage). This would also be fair to those corporate guys who spent years at a 135 job then jumped(to fulfill personal goals) when majors started to hire.

Glad to see over the years you became enlightened and are now trying to improve this profession, but please don't call me short sighted. It's hypocritical, especially since I've been trying to improve this profession from the beginning by not selling it out.

 

[atrdriver]

Too bad you didn't realize that as you were forking over that check for that "coveted" regional job while thousands of us struggled to find any student who wanted to learn to fly.

Your theory on ATP...not good enough. I think it should go by date you got your commercial MEL or, if Military, the date you got your wings. That would weed out the PFT advantage(which by the way is years of an advantage). This would also be fair to those corporate guys who spent years at a 135 job then jumped(to fulfill personal goals) when majors started to hire.

Glad to see over the years you became enlightened and are now trying to improve this profession, but please don't call me short sighted. It's hypocritical, especially since I've been trying to improve this profession from the beginning by not selling it out.

If you can't see that a national seniority list is just about the only way to save what this profession once was then you are being short sighted. I am quite sure that there is a way that could be found to implement it that would be "fair" for most concerned. And while I paid for my training at ASA, I paid less for it than most that paid for their 737 types at SWA. And I did instruct. But when the hiring boom of the late 90's came along, the only place that I wanted to go was a PFT place, so while I didn't agree with it, I didn't have a lot of choice, because there was no sign that it was going to end anytime soon. My choice was to continue instructing for an indefinite period, or bite the bullet. And considering that in the 4 months before I decided to go to ASA I had 5 students come really close to killing me, I made my choice.

 

[MJ42]

If you can't see that a national seniority list is just about the only way to save what this profession once was then you are being short sighted.I gave my opinion on how it should be formulated. I am quite sure that there is a way that could be found to implement it that would be "fair" for most concerned. And while I paid for my training at ASA, I paid less for it than most that paid for their 737 types at SWA. And that makes it ok? And I did instruct. But when the hiring boom of the late 90's came along, Um, you could have waited a few months, that was the time PFT started to go away! Very short sighted(and costly) thinking on your part the only place that I wanted to go was a PFT place, so while I didn't agree with it, I didn't have a lot of choice, because there was no sign that it was going to end anytime soon. Hiring boom could have been your first clue, again short sighted thinking on your part My choice was to continue instructing for an indefinite period, or bite the bullet. And considering that in the 4 months before I decided to go to ASA I had 5 students come really close to killing me, I made my choiceName one CFI that has not been in that same situation on several occasions!.

Typical PFT battle cry of excuses. Take responsibility for your choices.

Like I said, thousands of us were in the same situation but chose to uphold our respect for the profession. I could have taken out a loan but knew that was the wrong route to my goal.

As far as the Southwest comments, no one at SWA bought a job. They bought a type in hopes for a job. I don't agree with SWA making people do that, but it's a far cry from PFT. How many pilots are out there that paid for a 73 type, hoping for the SWA interview, that are NOT working for SWA. I'd say a lot. Beside, SWA is not a 1990's regional airline...it's a great final career stop. On the other hand, in the PFT days, you bought the job. I guess there may have been a few crappy pilots who didn't make it through training but it was rare, especially since they gave crappy pilots multiple chances before they were washed out.

I completely disagree with you about PFT, and again, do not call me short sighted. At least I gave my opinion on a starting point for how a list should be formulated. Again, glad you've seen the light and are now trying to better the profession, but your argument is ludicrous.

 

[atrdriver]

Typical PFT battle cry of excuses. Take responsibility for your choices.

Like I said, thousands of us were in the same situation but chose to uphold our respect for the profession. I could have taken out a loan but knew that was the wrong route to my goal.

As far as the Southwest comments, no one at SWA bought a job. They bought a type in hopes for a job. I don't agree with SWA making people do that, but it's a far cry from PFT. How many pilots are out there that paid for a 73 type, hoping for the SWA interview, that are NOT working for SWA. I'd say a lot. Beside, SWA is not a 1990's regional airline...it's a great final career stop. On the other hand, in the PFT days, you bought the job. I guess there may have been a few crappy pilots who didn't make it through training but it was rare, especially since they gave crappy pilots multiple chances before they were washed out.

I completely disagree with you about PFT, and again, do not call me short sighted. At least I gave my opinion on a starting point for how a list should be formulated. Again, glad you've seen the light and are now trying to better the profession, but your argument is ludicrous.

I have taken responsibility for my choices. I simply tried to give you an idea of why I made the choice that I did. Whether you respect it or not I don't really care. I gave an opinion on how a national list should be started too. Your idea has no more merit than mine did, and I would accept either. And When SWA started it was not much more than a 1990's regional. And while I certainly can't speak for what happened at other regionals with PFT, my class had about a 20% bust rate, which is quite a bit higher than my class at CAL 9 years later. Trying to imply that I am not a good pilot because I happened to go to work for ASA is childish.

 

[MJ42]

I have taken responsibility for my choices. I simply tried to give you an idea of why I made the choice that I did. Many THOUSANDS had the same choice but chose wisely. Whether you respect it or not I don't really care.I don't, but that's beside the point. I gave an opinion on how a national list should be started too. Your idea has no more merit than mine did, Yes, it does. Yours give an advantage to pilots that don't deserve it.and I would accept either. And When SWA started it was not much more than a 1990's regional.Except it was in the 70's during regulation. SWA survived de-regulation, and became a powerhouse today. And while I certainly can't speak for what happened at other regionals with PFT, my class had about a 20% bust rate,And, as customary for PFT "employers", your classmates probably didn't get a refund (or at best just a partial refund) which is quite a bit higher than my class at CAL 9 years later. Trying to imply that I am not a good pilot because I happened to go to work for ASA is childish.

How did I imply you were not a good pilot? Re-read my comments, I made no such inference.

National seniority list has too many other problems as well(pointed out on another thread). But buying seniority, like your idea, doesn't cut it.

Trying to be noble after the fact isn't and excuse for the lack of nobility and judgement while handing over that cash. You participated in the some of the same crap that contributes to why this profession has deteriorated yet you complain about the industry downfall and short sighted pilots... pretty hypocritical, huh? Sad that you don't see that.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Trying to be noble after the fact isn't and excuse for the lack of nobility and judgement while handing over that cash. You participated in the some of the same crap that contributes to why this profession has deteriorated yet you complain about the industry downfall and short sighted pilots... pretty hypocritical, huh? Sad that you don't see that.

MJ42,

While you pontificate from on high....could you enlighten us as to the "high road" you took....

What two regionals did you fly for? What cargo and instructing gigs did you do and what did they pay? Those of us "slumming it" at ASA and CMR would like to know what the "high road" was......

....oh and while your at it, can you tell us what you are being paid to fly the NWA RJ....

 

[MJ42]

MJ42,

While you pontificate from on high....could you enlighten us as to the "high road" you took....

What two regionals did you fly for? What cargo and instructing gigs did you do and what did they pay? Those of us "slumming it" at ASA and CMR would like to know what the "high road" was......

....oh and while your at it, can you tell us what you are being paid to fly the NWA RJ....

How funny, Joe. This guy contributed to practices that hurt this industry several years ago, wants to benefit now from those bad decisions by where he'd fit in on his National seniority list theory, then becomes the moral authority on improving the industry. That's a joke!

 

[JoeMerchant]

How funny, Joe. This guy contributed to practices that hurt this industry several years ago, wants to benefit now from those bad decisions by where he'd fit in on his National seniority list theory, then becomes the moral authority on improving the industry. That's a joke!

Why are you sidestepping the question.....Tell us O'great One what high road you took....What 2 regionals did you fly for? How much did you make flying cargo and instructing...Educate us about the "high road".....I guess you are just another hypocrite...

 

[737 Pylt]

Why are you sidestepping the question.....Tell us O'great One what high road you took....What 2 regionals did you fly for? How much did you make flying cargo and instructing...Educate us about the "high road".....I guess you are just another hypocrite...

:laugh: :laugh:
rjdc scum calling someone a hypocrite!

Laughable. Keep the hits coming JB.

737