Can a Pilot Monitoring Log Instrument Time

[the135pilot]

I fly a PC-12 in a charter company 135 , we have PIC and SIC . Can a Pilot Monitoring ( PM ) (SIC) log the instrument time while he is only monitoring ?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Only if an SIC is required under 135.

 

[the135pilot]

Only if an SIC is required under 135.

Yes , it’s requiered , But my question is more like , if the pilot flying ( PIC ) flies 2 hrs of Actual instrument can de SIC ( pilot monitoring ) log the same 2 hrs ?

Some ppl say not because he’s not the pilot flying only monitoring , now if the SIC is the pilot flying yes he can log his own time .

 

[bafanguy]

FAR 61.51(g) would seem to say that you have to be the one flying the airplane in IMC:

"...when the person operates the aircraft..."

14 CFR § 61.51 - Pilot logbooks.

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[midlifeflyer]

FAR 61.51(g) would seem to say that you have to be the one flying the airplane in IMC:

"...when the person operates the aircraft..."

14 CFR § 61.51 - Pilot logbooks.

www.law.cornell.edu

There's a Chief Counsel interpretation that a required copilot is "performing" the approach.

 

[bafanguy]

I'd be interested to see that letter. I've tried to locate issues in that venue but failed. Do you have a link to it ?

the135pilot didn't offer enough detail to indicate whether his operation "requires" a F/O.

I'm not much of a lawyer.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'd be interested to see that letter. I've tried to locate issues in that venue but failed. Do you have a link to it ?

the135pilot didn't offer enough detail to indicate whether his operation "requires" a F/O.

I'm not much of a lawyer.

Sorry, I had it backwards. I forgot that the non-flying SIC cannot log the approach (although a CFI giving instruction can). The letter is the 1999 Carpenter letter.

 

[bafanguy]

mlf,

Thanks for the letter. So much to know...so little time.

 

[midlifeflyer]

mlf,

Thanks for the letter. So much to know...so little time.

Notice that the letter also says that while the non flying required SIC can't log the approach, they can log the instrument time. Semantic differences between, "operating," "performing," and "manipulating."

 

[bafanguy]

mlf,

In looking a the Carpenter letter, I assume it refers to Part 121 ops.

Where it mentions maintaining instrument currency, I don't recall ever keeping track of/documenting that the way we had to for landings, for example. I'm sure the company would've had us submitting some kind of form if it had been required.

I have almost no Part 91 operating experience so was not exposed to having to keep track of instrument currency. Should I have been keeping track when I shot an approach in actual IMC under Part 121 ?

Too late now but just curious.

 

[midlifeflyer]

mlf,

In looking a the Carpenter letter, I assume it refers to Part 121 ops.

Where it mentions maintaining instrument currency, I don't recall ever keeping track of/documenting that the way we had to for landings, for example. I'm sure the company would've had us submitting some kind of form if it had been required.

I have almost no Part 91 operating experience so was not exposed to having to keep track of instrument currency. Should I have been keeping track when I shot an approach in actual IMC under Part 121 ?

Too late now but just curious.

It applies to any ops.
chances are, your Part 121 checks probably satisfy Part 61 currency standards.

 

[bafanguy]

It applies to any ops.
chances are, your Part 121 checks probably satisfy Part 61 currency standards.

Well, it must be something like that. I spent 35 years in Part 121 ops and never gave so much as a thought to instrument currency. Nor could I have told you how many approaches I shot in IMC...ever.

 

[FlyBigE]

I've flown many operators under different regs. While it may be technically legal to log, I'd recommend sticking to main ideas on logging or you could end up trying to defend it in an interview to someone that doens't know all the intricacies, but will control your future.

I'd only log the SIC in the PC-12 if it singed off in the ops spec as requiring the SIC.
Also, if once is a CFII in this scenario you cannot give instruction under 135 unless your check airman for the company.

just my .02 worth from stuff I've seen pop up over the years.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've flown many operators under different regs. While it may be technically legal to log, I'd recommend sticking to main ideas on logging or you could end up trying to defend it in an interview to someone that doens't know all the intricacies, but will control your future.

I'd only log the SIC in the PC-12 if it singed off in the ops spec as requiring the SIC.
Also, if once is a CFII in this scenario you cannot give instruction under 135 unless your check airman for the company.

just my .02 worth from stuff I've seen pop up over the years.

I hope you really don't have to defend logging in accordance with the rules. You kind of have to wonder what other "main idea" FAA rules they don't like.

 

[bafanguy]

I hope you really don't have to defend logging in accordance with the rules. You kind of have to wonder what other "main idea" FAA rules they don't like.

I got the impression flybige was referring more to the issue of whether an interviewer was familiar enough with the legal fine points of logging instrument time rather than disagreeing with the regs themselves.

I agree with him that I wouldn't want to bet my shot at a career slot on whether some interviewer (pilot or non-pilot) understood the regs well enough to know I wasn't "fudging" or, if he did know the regs, pushing the envelope. Considering how flaky and subjective the interview process can be, I wouldn't want to risk it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I got the impression flybige was referring more to the issue of whether an interviewer was familiar enough with the legal fine points of logging instrument time rather than disagreeing with the regs themselves.

I agree with him that I wouldn't want to bet my shot at a career slot on whether some interviewer (pilot or non-pilot) understood the regs well enough to know I wasn't "fudging" or, if he did know the regs, pushing the envelope. Considering how flaky and subjective the interview process can be, I wouldn't want to risk it.

Maybe. But I think it's sad if a logbook reviewer doesn't know the basic rules of logging.

 

[bafanguy]

But I think it's sad if a logbook reviewer doesn't know the basic rules of logging.

Judging from the number of questions on av forums about logging flight time, I suspect lots of people aren't clear about what's legal. At some point, I might have to count myself among them.

I suspect many people sitting on interview boards are also included. That might be flybige's point: an applicant can be perfectly "legal" and appear to be fudging to an uninformed interviewer. That is not a moment for the applicant to start trying to educate the interviewer. Just a thought.

 

[FlyBigE]

I've had a fair amount of interviews in my career. In my experience most just know the basics on logging and not the intricate details that can exist within the regs.