IBT Lawsuit

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Interesting. Mister 1 post "Jafjw" replies to a comment that "Bill_Lumbergh" directed at "Imissmypilot", as if it was directed at him/her. Did you forget what user name/avatar you were longed in with Jafjw?

Dude. That's funny!

 

[Jafjw]

Nope just thought the comment I was responding to was directed at FJ pilots who maybe aren't completely sold on the union yet. I didn't realize the comment was directed at just one pilot. Sorry.

Flexjet pilots are getting tired of the constant complaint from those pilots in particular who brought this union to us but continue to complain about their workload. There is a strong resentment from supporters and non supporters alike we are represented by leadership we didn't vote on and apparently have no say in the process. From a Flexjet perspective, so far everything done is being done with only Options in mind.

I joined here specifically so I could ask some questions that neither side will appreciate.

Here they are:

1.) What will happen to all VSP recipients that would not qualify now based on a fleet/seniority standard? On the one hand, it would suck to be depending on something and have it disappear into thin air. On the other hand, it serves them right for trusting a management team that not only refused to act in their best interests by following the legally defined process, but additionally a management team that brought the lawsuit that will result in their possible financial loss.

2.) Union support (as naturally indicated by a properly negotiated CBA) might have resulted in significantly higher participation, thus nullifying the need for a furlough. Accordingly, will the union seek additional relief for the furloughs who have been unquestionably harmed as a result of management's failure to act legally reasonably and responsibly?

3.) I figure management had a number in their head of X number of Options pilots on the street "no matter what" to furlough, since it was a political furlough according to the union. Obviously, it was the perception of failure they were seeking to pin on the union, not financial relief. I imagine they keep going up through the list of transfers (who would never actually be out of a job) and current Options pilots until they hit that number. If the VSP is reopened to participation and there are additional takers, will the company be forced to bring back pilots on a one to one basis?

4.) At what point will transfers have to notify the union of what their SLI number choice will be?

5.) I do not see in the court document a guarantee the 9 month clock starts in February. Is that an assumption or another future litigation issue?

6.) From one of the posts in this forum. why didn't the union seek relief of the Red Label pay disparity if it was a union busting tactic? What is the stance of the Union on the Red Label issue. Obviously it is a delicate issue and not all Red Label pilots are anti union. However, I do find the lack of clarity a little uncomfortable.

7.) Why did the company only seek relief for the transfers but not the 50 or so mid list Captains who lost out?

8.) What are the plans for the union to deal with the fence issues relating to the new European deal?

9.) What is the union plan to deal with the new Challengers that will come to Flexjet for Red Label only? Can we force the company to assign them to the regular program under fence agreements?

 

[Jafjw]

Also,

10.) When are we going to start seeing some of these advantages we were promised during the campaign, such as job protection representation during disciplinary or training issues, negotiation dates regarding the new and improved CBA etc


11.) A union representative told me thanksgiving we would have a contract signed sealed and delivered. Do we not get to vote on the JCBA? During the campaign, we were told there would be 3 phases of our new contract. Initial protection and status quo, then JCBA, then CBA. Why is it different now?

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Lots of good points, but don't expect anyone to spoon feed you. Read the Federal Judge's opinion and figure it out for yourself. If you want a say in the union, you goal is to get membership to 50%+1 and you get to elect who you want. Otherwise you really don't have much to contribute to the betterment of the joint pilot group. If you have a problem with that, you can go back and get more of mommy's milk.

 

[dime line]

#7........Go and try Kenns "Open Door Policy" , ask your question, and report back on how that went

 

[Jafjw]

Lots of good points, but don't expect anyone to spoon feed you. Read the Federal Judge's opinion and figure it out for yourself. If you want a say in the union, you goal is to get membership to 50%+1 and you get to elect who you want. Otherwise you really don't have much to contribute to the betterment of the joint pilot group. If you have a problem with that, you can go back and get more of mommy's milk.

I did read it completely which is more than one can say for you doing the same with my questions. If you had read them you would see I'm not asking anyone to spoonfeed me anything. I am asking only questions not yet answered, are being avoided or were not contained in the documents. It should be obvious I am very well versed in the process and events. You do not need to insult me.

Why do all of you union people have to be such arrogant prick$ and then question why no one wants to join up with you or be associated with such combative rudeness?

I mean what I said earlier. When the time comes for a vote I will certainly throw my hat in the ring. At this time there is a resentment pertaining to our representation not being decided upon by the pilots they represent. I do not see a need to confuse my future participation and ability to lead with an association to a regime that lacks the backing of the process we thought we were getting. Consider it a political move but the future will be outsiders who run the show and I want to set myself up for success not a brief moment in the spotlight.

I actually support the Flexjet current PLC and former POC and have no personal or particular issues with any of them. Unfortunately, all of their reputations have taken an undeserved huge hit that will be nearly impossible to recover from regarding their future in an election phase.

You Options a-holes are part of the problem because much of the resentment Flexjet pilots feel toward vocally pro union pilots has to do with our perceptions of the union people like you created and forced upon a large percentage of unwilling pilots. Your general tone is unhelpfulness and bravado if you have the question one is not falling hook line and sinker for your talking points. Right now we are slowly realizing we really should have fought harder for our own union and are not pleased being hog tied to an agenda that does not affect us. In other words, right now even it's you who doesn't care about our "joint pilot group". You care about Options. All management cares about is the transfers. When does a Flexjet pilot get some of his needs addresssed?

I did receive an email from a Flexjet leader based on my post. It's a shame. Their desire to do the right thing and reputations are overshadowed by the rhetoric you insist on perpetuating.

 

[shanes123]

The arrogant pr$cks are the Flex pilots. And that's not just a options sides view. The whole industry has come to see Flexs true colors. Netjets pilots , TMC pilots, their all on the road talking about how arrogant and stupid you all are. And your idiot talking mouth on the VUH isn't helping your cause. You POS made out better on the SLI even the FING judge said so. But again your arrogance and stupidity stand in the way of seeing any of it. Self Serving, hypocrites, A kissers. Why you think KR bought you losers instead of CA. That was no accident, he saw what idiots you where and knew it was his best shot at beating the union. Those CA guys where a stand up group of professionals. A word you clowns have no idea what it means. Where's you're precious management that KR FIRED!!!!! Way back when ( read my past posts I'm sure it's in there somewhere ) I wanted equality for everyone but you flex fools don't deserve a damn thing. The union is here to stay and the leader ship we have is the best there is. They are a moral ethical group of guys. Words you guys will never understand. If any of you guys worked for Netjets especially FW you would have been ran off the property a long time ago. That's my rant for the night. Time for a few more Vodkas. Deuces B$tches

 

[Imissmypilot]

Interesting. Mister 1 post "Jafjw" replies to a comment that "Bill_Lumbergh" directed at "Imissmypilot", as if it was directed at him/her. Did you forget what user name/avatar you were longed in with Jafjw?

While I did not disagree with his/her original post or mind being associated with the sentiments I went on to further read the implication he is a red label pilot since they are the only ones who defend the program. Therefore I request no association with a scumbag IGM.

Speaking of the new class of IGM double dippers I heard management recinded their verbal offer to allow pilots to double dip over the weekend. Is it possible they wanted to be able to deny such agreements were being quietly hashed out? Go read Yammer and judge for yourself. By the way the double dip required pilots to be at will and understand they were not covered by the employee agreement. Why does management persist in their delusion that employee agreement is valid and if it is, why would new hires or Options VSP transfers not get it too?

If Yammer claims are true why are they still vetting pilots for off the street hires? I personally know someone called within the past two weeks.

 

[ghostrider64]

Reality is....

If you aren't helping the cause, your're hurting it. There is no place for sitting on the sidelines when it comes to "Our Industry". The bar was set years ago by NJASAP, and we've experienced almost everything flops and flex are experiencing, to include integration of a non Union entity.

I suspect at this point that two attitudes prevail inside the former NJI camp. 1) they wish they'd been more "helpful and active" in the integration and negotiation process. 2) they are impressed by the gains and protections they are now afforded by being included in the union and as Union members.

So sit in the sidelines and wait, but doing so will do nothing but slow the inevitable process.

BTW where is that G4dude that once professed how bad we at the Union were? His silence is deafening.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

The arrogant pr$cks are the Flex pilots. And that's not just a options sides view. The whole industry has come to see Flexs true colors. Netjets pilots , TMC pilots, their all on the road talking about how arrogant and stupid you all are. And your idiot talking mouth on the VUH isn't helping your cause. You POS made out better on the SLI even the FING judge said so. But again your arrogance and stupidity stand in the way of seeing any of it. Self Serving, hypocrites, A kissers. Why you think KR bought you losers instead of CA. That was no accident, he saw what idiots you where and knew it was his best shot at beating the union. Those CA guys where a stand up group of professionals. A word you clowns have no idea what it means. Where's you're precious management that KR FIRED!!!!! Way back when ( read my past posts I'm sure it's in there somewhere ) I wanted equality for everyone but you flex fools don't deserve a damn thing. The union is here to stay and the leader ship we have is the best there is. They are a moral ethical group of guys. Words you guys will never understand. If any of you guys worked for Netjets especially FW you would have been ran off the property a long time ago. That's my rant for the night. Time for a few more Vodkas. Deuces B$tches

Word, my brutha

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Jafjw, why don't you just go ask all of those questions on Yammer? You will get the answers want there. ...Pu$$y

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

#7........Go and try Kenns "Open Door Policy" , ask your question, and report back on how that went

Yeah, Go ask Kenn himself and see how that work out.

 

[V1 Rotate]

The arrogant pr$cks are the Flex pilots. And that's not just a options sides view. The whole industry has come to see Flexs true colors. Netjets pilots , TMC pilots, their all on the road talking about how arrogant and stupid you all are. And your idiot talking mouth on the VUH isn't helping your cause. You POS made out better on the SLI even the FING judge said so. But again your arrogance and stupidity stand in the way of seeing any of it. Self Serving, hypocrites, A kissers. Why you think KR bought you losers instead of CA. That was no accident, he saw what idiots you where and knew it was his best shot at beating the union. Those CA guys where a stand up group of professionals. A word you clowns have no idea what it means. Where's you're precious management that KR FIRED!!!!! Way back when ( read my past posts I'm sure it's in there somewhere ) I wanted equality for everyone but you flex fools don't deserve a damn thing. The union is here to stay and the leader ship we have is the best there is. They are a moral ethical group of guys. Words you guys will never understand. If any of you guys worked for Netjets especially FW you would have been ran off the property a long time ago. That's my rant for the night. Time for a few more Vodkas. Deuces B$tches

And you epitomize the very image that every pilot in the industry had of Flight Options. A loser, not very bright, bottom of the barrel pilot who probably couldn't find another job worth having if your life depended on it. You really need to lay off the booze and heavy metal (I've seen your Facebook page). We have our problems here at Flex but I'll take FW over you any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I seriously think your mental issues are worse than Ricci's. Yes, he's a narcissist, but you're a raving lunatic. You're one of the jackasses that I had to dismiss when I decided to join the Union and start volunteering my services, which I'm still waiting to see you sign up for something. But to be honest, I'd rather you not. You can't even handle yourself on Flight Info, no way I'm going into battle with you on any committee. If us Flex guys are so inferior, how is it that you got so outsmarted with the SLI?

 

[shanes123]

Oh so your saying the Flex guys F the option guys on SLI???? Yep that would be something you IGM guys would do. I'm not surprised

 

[Honorstudent]

A Federal Judge has ruled, one of the highest courts in the land has ruled and it has been court ordered that the companies Onesky, Flight Options, Flexjet, accept the SLI resend the VSP AND BARGAIN IN GOOD FAITH! I think we should all remember who filed the initial law suit that btw the Judge commented on being Specious, (look it up). Just in case there are those that are unaware, it was the companies that filed the initial Law Suit, the IBT1108 responded with a counter suit, as was there responsibility in representing both Flexjet and Flight Options Pilots. The company has been unwilling to negotiate in good faith for quite a while now, a VSP has been negotiated twice before with this management during previous furloughs at Flight Options and can be again. If a VSP is not negotiated for the pilots at Flexjet or Flight Options, it will be because the company has failed once again to come to the table and negotiate in good faith even though the company has been court ordered to negotiate in good faith and if I were that Federal Judge I would possibly view this as a contemptuous act. If there is no VSP in the end the company is to blame not the Union.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Oh so your saying the Flex guys F the option guys on SLI???? Yep that would be something you IGM guys would do. I'm not surprised

If you think I'm an IGM, then you're dumber than I give you credit for. Do you not read any of my posts? Do you have no idea what I spent my time doing between December and February? I'm telling ya, lay off the booze and heavy metal.

 

[exagony]

A Federal Judge has ruled, one of the highest courts in the land has ruled and it has been court ordered that the companies Onesky, Flight Options, Flexjet, accept the SLI resend the VSP AND BARGAIN IN GOOD FAITH! I think we should all remember who filed the initial law suit that btw the Judge commented on being Specious, (look it up). Just in case there are those that are unaware, it was the companies that filed the initial Law Suit, the IBT1108 responded with a counter suit, as was there responsibility in representing both Flexjet and Flight Options Pilots. The company has been unwilling to negotiate in good faith for quite a while now, a VSP has been negotiated twice before with this management during previous furloughs at Flight Options and can be again. If a VSP is not negotiated for the pilots at Flexjet or Flight Options, it will be because the company has failed once again to come to the table and negotiate in good faith even though the company has been court ordered to negotiate in good faith and if I were that Federal Judge I would possibly view this as a contemptuous act. If there is no VSP in the end the company is to blame not the Union.

What he said. Spot on

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Now that the Federal Judge has ruled, the narcissist will not accept defeat. The next step he will take, will be to appeal this judge's decision. It's just like a 4 year old having his tantrum. The VSP can be worked out in one day, but the narcissist has ordered his minions to not cooperate. The Federal Judge basically said the company's position was bordering on frivolous. Somehow Kenn feels it is beneath him to negotiate in good faith with his pilots.

 

[OrionCFI]

Let me tell you what this Union has done for me. They have taken away a raise and once again put my job at risk for not allowing a voluntary separation program go through. The union would rather furlough me and give me 2 months pay with cobra than let pilots leave on their own accord. You guys aren't here for me. You are here to push some meaningless agenda. Furthermore, why would he negotiate with a group that attacks him no matter what he does? I can't wait to see what glorious contract you get. I'm sure it will be super. Thanks 1108 for everything.

Please, someone tell me what you expect to get? What do you really think the highlights will be? Remember this is a negotiation. You have to give up something in order to get something else.

 

[Honorstudent]

So Orion CFI, are you at Flex Or Flight Options or perhaps a Flight Options transfer to Flex, it doesn't matter because Union leadership is very cognizant of DFR therefore they must also consider long term implications as well as short sided decisions that will impact the future of both pilot groups as a whole for many years to come. If you would like to talk about some selfless individuals it is the leadership of the IBT1108 past and present, anyone that is eager to bash this Union should step up and run in the 2017 Eboard election.

 

[shanes123]

We have given up plenty the last 7 years. Now it's time to get back. KR has lined his pockets with Gold and a GV. It's time to get Paid. And more then 30% like the Brain dead label bragging about on VUH.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

The pilots have given up a lot for the promise from THE COMPANY that one day we would be rewarded. They have delayed as much as they can. Eventually they will have to follow thru on their promises. Which brings me to the lack of a raise for the office personnel. A lot of them sympathize with the plight of the pilots because, ultimately its effects them also. That is why they are willing to talk and let us know what is happening behind the scenes and I will quote "only 9 Options and 5 Flex pilots took the VSP. I guess that amounts to significant interest to Silvestro." I'm allowed to share as long as I don't use the author's name.

 

[OrionCFI]

You were about to get "paid". You messed that up by believing in the 1108. No one has answered what you expect to get except for get "paid". What leverage do you have for the company to give you anything? I'm not going to sit here and defend any one individual, but I do not believe the Union will do right by anyone. Look the proposed SLI, that you guys are praising must be implemented. Wow, that was completely different from what was being proposed during negotiations. What a mess. It just breeds contempt between the two companies.

 

[Dirty Squirrel]

The pilots have given up a lot for the promise from THE COMPANY that one day we would be rewarded. They have delayed as much as they can. Eventually they will have to follow thru on their promises. Which brings me to the lack of a raise for the office personnel. A lot of them sympathize with the plight of the pilots because, ultimately its effects them also. That is why they are willing to talk and let us know what is happening behind the scenes and I will quote "only 9 Options and 5 Flex pilots took the VSP. I guess that amounts to significant interest to Silvestro." I'm allowed to share as long as I don't use the author's name.

Your facts are out of context. The 9/5 numbers are the pilots that have been released so far. More have tentative dates. There are many MANY more on the list. I only speak for the Flex side.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

You were about to get "paid". You messed that up by believing in the 1108. No one has answered what you expect to get except for get "paid". What leverage do you have for the company to give you anything? I'm not going to sit here and defend any one individual, but I do not believe the Union will do right by anyone. Look the proposed SLI, that you guys are praising must be implemented. Wow, that was completely different from what was being proposed during negotiations. What a mess. It just breeds contempt between the two companies.

Any what are you doing? Just trying to breed contempt. I will acknowledge that I don't have the negotiating prowess to reach an equitable individual bargain with Kenn. What some of these pilots are willing to accept, at this point in their career, is shameful. This whole mess falls squarely in the lap of Kenn himself.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Your facts are out of context. The 9/5 numbers are the pilots that have been released so far. More have tentative dates. There are many MANY more on the list. I only speak for the Flex side.

But right there you prove the bull******************** of the furlough.

Everyone, just logically think for 1 minute.

If 80 took the VSP, and 14 have been excepted and released thus far that leaves 66 pilots with future dates.

So why furlough right away? Why not expedite the release dates of the VSP? My understanding is the furlough has caused fleet operations issues on the Options side. Issues that could have been mitigated with a more thoughtful approach to any of the companies claims of financial losses. No wonder they are losing money (if you really believe that BS) because they are apparently foolish and hasty.

I'm so flabbergasted to see even strong union supporters blame the Union for this issue. I support a Union because I have seen the ridiculously rash way this management team operates. In my opinion given the blatantly obvious manipulation this VSP debacle was, it is clear management sent us all up the river in their game of chicken. The Union had to do what it had to do. They have a legal and ethical responsibility to long held interpretations of federal law or else otherwise they could be liable and sued themselves by individual pilots.

If the union did not do what it did in this case, do you realize every single remaining pilot could sue the union for breach of duty? Did you not read the judges order? He basically explains that very issue as a support for his ruling. The balance of remaining pilots (far more than a handful who were abused here by management) must be Considered regarding the refusal to exercise the CBA in the interest of their members. Did you read that any differently?

I know it sucks to be furloughed and lose the VSP option you thought you might get but have you considered a.) This isn't over yet and b.) You possibly have a class action lawsuit against Silvestro and Ricci personally for fraud and personal damages outside of the Union issue.

It came to me when reading MG's post on VUH. What these executives have done to you personally with disregard for your lives all in the name of ridding themselves of a union is unconscionable. Maybe that's the direction you should be positioning your anger and effort. Fraud is criminal and doesn't Cuyahoga County have a sympathetic DA? Just thinking out loud. Maybe you could do a class action civil suit (seperate from union matter) for fraud and seek damages. These aren't union or RLA issues but rather a personal claim. The track record of lies and ruthlessness is on your side.

 

[shanes123]

V1 you say the Flex guys outsmarted the options guys on the SLI, but your not a IGM. You prefer brain dead label pilot over me. MR I got my 30%. But your not a IGM. As blatantly harsh as I am I have always argued for equality for everyone until recently. I say what everyone else is thinking kinda like TRUMP. When I am sitting talking to a group of pilots on the road, Netjets, TMC, XO guys. A lot of them make me look mild on how they speak of Flexs arrogance and stupidity at the same time. Oh and I will never give up the Booze or heavy Metal maybe you should try it. Get away from the TEXASS TWO STEP.

Missmypilot very good points however I still believe that the union could have signed off on the VSP the way it was presented instead of fighting for a BETTER DEAL, I feel the deal was more then most of the ones looking to leave deserve in the first place. Why couldn't they have LOA it sign off and be done with it? It has really hurt the support even union supporters didn't agree with the decision but again won't speak out publicly. I'm glad the judge ruled in favor of the union I just think that's a battle that could have been avoided

 

[OrionCFI]

I have read these boards for years and have never said anything. I have seen and read the contemp that people have for this management group. Like I mentioned before I am defending anyone, I am just stating the way I have seen it over the last few years. On my end nothing has changed. Promises of better times and growth have been stated, but this is aviation they always say that. My paycheck hasn't changed. My schedule hasn't changed. All of this under this hateful, POS management team right?
Let's say we would have voted the 1108 out. Did everyone think we were going to lose our jobs? Immediate pay cut? Schedule change? 401 k loss? Why would he do that? In fact the 401k got restated for some and if we voted them out we were all getting a raise. Oh yeah, with the implementation of this Union, my job is on the chopping block due to possible furloughs.
Go ahead rip my head off and tell me how short sighted I am. From where I'm sitting I don't see this doom and gloom. Seems like every darn aviation management group out there.

 

[shanes123]

Orion just asking a question here. Do you believe anyone would have received a raise if union vote failed? Their furloughing pilots!!! Maybe there would I been a small raise maybe not. But with no contract and furloughs I smell a paycut. KR hasn't given office people, Mechanics, Flight Attendants, anyone a raise in 15+ years why would he give the Pilots one?

 

[el raton]

Why does anyone still work at flight options?