The next vote, December 20th

[D_G]

I can understand, at least make sense of the money bucket, but *************************ing out and agreeing to 8 years.. it doesn't matter who he is, you don't back down just because he doesn't want to see picketing again, that is not Strong Union. It really makes me wonder what went on behind those closed doors. Seclusion, a wonderful thing

 

[gutshotdraw]

Yup.

Embrace the suck. 9-10 years of it.

 

[gunfyter]

I think the test of whether or not it sucks will be demonstrated by whether mass amounts of pilots leave for the airlines as the hiring continues to spool up.

 

[G4dude]

I think the test of whether or not it sucks will be demonstrated by whether mass amounts of pilots leave for the airlines as the hiring continues to spool up.

If this contract is approved, and IF many pilots leave, can NJA increase pilot compensation to stop the attrition? If so, how would that come about?

 

[imacdog]

See: IBB 2007. Something all NJA pilots should be very familiar with.

 

[jetlag7]

Sometimes change happens outside of normal bargaining (Section 6, IBB, etc...)

Remember the 5-Domicile system for new hires? IBB 2007 grew it to 100 bases but later on, the company had to expand it to over 200 prior to the NJI merger....

 

[NachoMamma]

Post-ratification, pilot attrition will be limited to FO's only (2006 hires and later). Existing PIC's won't be going anywhere. This place will be become an FO revolving door again, but only when junior pilots learn that they will NEVER be upgrading here...ever (some figure that out sooner than others). If this proves too costly for the company (ie, no growth because new pilots are staying here less than 2-3 years), then they will be forced to address it - possibly with another IBB. They will also likely have a very difficult time finding new (good) pilots to work here. I'm curious what the answer is when the inevitable questions comes up "So what's the upgrade time here?" Time will tell.

 

[wacoflyr]

Just remember that YOU, the NetJets PIC's, are the ones that decided to do this to your FO's. Sit down, and don't look to the right. It would be too uncomfortable.

 

[realityman]

Just remember that YOU, the NetJets PIC's, are the ones that decided to do this to your FO's. Sit down, and don't look to the right. It would be too uncomfortable.

Seriously Waco? Maybe you'd better think one more time about that statement. Let me help you.

First of all, the PIC's won't have done anything to the SIC's. Maybe you need to be reminded that it was the NC (some of whom are FO's) who negotiated this deal. Oh, and maybe you've already forgotten that our union president, you know, the leader of the union and who has wholeheartedly endorsed this deal, is also an FO.

Second, there are plenty of FO's who are voting in favor of this TA. Plenty. Try reading our own boards once in a while. It's readily apparent. My last company recurrent I was paired with a very senior FO whom I like a great deal and who informed me he would vote yes because he believed it really was the best we could do.

Finally, I'm a very senior captain and I voted no. I also know of several more captains, more senior than me, that have also voted no.

We'll know very shortly whether this passes or not. I think it will. And while technically speaking it will require a majority of PIC's to vote yes to get it to pass, so if it passes you could say PIC's played a large role in it, that doesn't mean we're all responsible or that all SIC's voted against it.

And actually, if the vote is close, maybe within 6-7%, you could actually blame the FO's since there are a surprising number who are voting yes.

So quit bellyaching about it! If it passes and you're going to be a miserable sod to fly with after that, do us all a favor and just quit.

If I'm ever paired with you I'lll look right as much as I darn well please. If you want to sit there and stew for the next 5-10 years be my guest. You won't bring me down. If we get a decent overnight feel free to slam-click and leave this "fat, dumb and happy" PIC alone.

We're a union. While I voted no I also understand that sometimes the majority, which I may not be a part of, will override my wishes. Life goes on.

The only thing is, if I fly with enough FO's who want to be miserable at work and act like the PIC's are the enemy (I don;t plan on advertising how I voted to everyone I fly with so we'll see how this goes), maybe next vote I'll just go with my most selfish instincts and the heck with anyone else.

 

[snoopy_1]

If you want to sit there and stew for the next 5-10 years be my guest.

I like that. We are in control of wether or not we sit here and stew, nobody is forcing us. I don't like the low pay either, for an 11 year FO which most of us are, or for a 14 year captain which most captains are at or above 14 years. I am at an age where I may not be able to move to a better (pay and seniority to hold 13 day schedule with 28 days vacation) job, so this might be it. But no one is forcing me to Sit Here And Stew, that would only be me. It sucks but maybe enough new guys will see it and create a Netjets Pri 1 departure and an IBB will correct it. I'm not going to Stew though.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Seriously Waco? Maybe you'd better think one more time about that statement. Let me help you.

First of all, the PIC's won't have done anything to the SIC's. Maybe you need to be reminded that it was the NC (some of whom are FO's) who negotiated this deal. Oh, and maybe you've already forgotten that our union president, you know, the leader of the union and who has wholeheartedly endorsed this deal, is also an FO.

Second, there are plenty of FO's who are voting in favor of this TA. Plenty. Try reading our own boards once in a while. It's readily apparent. My last company recurrent I was paired with a very senior FO whom I like a great deal and who informed me he would vote yes because he believed it really was the best we could do.

Finally, I'm a very senior captain and I voted no. I also know of several more captains, more senior than me, that have also voted no.

We'll know very shortly whether this passes or not. I think it will. And while technically speaking it will require a majority of PIC's to vote yes to get it to pass, so if it passes you could say PIC's played a large role in it, that doesn't mean we're all responsible or that all SIC's voted against it.

And actually, if the vote is close, maybe within 6-7%, you could actually blame the FO's since there are a surprising number who are voting yes.

So quit bellyaching about it! If it passes and you're going to be a miserable sod to fly with after that, do us all a favor and just quit.

If I'm ever paired with you I'lll look right as much as I darn well please. If you want to sit there and stew for the next 5-10 years be my guest. You won't bring me down. If we get a decent overnight feel free to slam-click and leave this "fat, dumb and happy" PIC alone.

We're a union. While I voted no I also understand that sometimes the majority, which I may not be a part of, will override my wishes. Life goes on.

The only thing is, if I fly with enough FO's who want to be miserable at work and act like the PIC's are the enemy (I don;t plan on advertising how I voted to everyone I fly with so we'll see how this goes), maybe next vote I'll just go with my most selfish instincts and the heck with anyone else.

My situation, my vote, and my attitude almost word for word.

Well said Realityman.

 

[snoopy_1]

It really does need reworked, there is some crazy sht in this CSTA, if the prez would have been a senior FO there wouldn't be people like me or even more senior to me that have to wait several months after hitting their anniversary date to to get the raise to that year pay. They looked at the presidents seniority and went from there, not thinking about the FOs senior to him. About 100 FOs will hit their 12, 13, and 14 year anniversary but won't get that years pay under the CSTA until December 21st that year, the gray area FOs they are forever known as.

 

[snoopy_1]

Maybe this thing will get shot down today and they will fix the areas that are FUBAR not counting on it though.. so how about

Some Irish Humor
As the plane approached the Dublin air field, the tower heard:


PILOT- Bejeesus will ya look how fookin shart dat runway is?


CO-PILOT- Yer nat fookin kiddin, Paddy


PILOT- Dis is ganna be one a de trickiest landings I ever did, Shamus


CO-PILOT- Yer nat fookin kiddin, Paddy


PILOT- Royt, Shamus, when I say 'go' put de engines in reverse !!


CO-PILOT- Royt, I'll do dat!!


PILOT- An den ya put de flaps down full!!


CO-PILOT- Royt, I'll do dat too, Paddy!!


PILOT- An den stomp an der brakes as hard as ye can an pray ta de Holy Mudder a Gad!!


CO-PILOT- I'm prayin' already, Paddy, but I'll hit de brakes as hard as I can!!


So, as the wheels touched the ground, Shamus put the engines in reverse, put the flaps down, stomped on the brakes and continued to pray to the Holy Mother with all of his soul.


The brakes screeched, the tires squealed, and there was smoke everywhere. But, to the relief of all passengers, as they untangled themselves from the overhead baggage and not least of all, Paddy and Shamus, the aircraft came to a stop just a few meters from the end of the runway!!


As Paddy and Shamus sat in the cockpit regaining some composure, Paddy looked out of the window and said to Shamus, "Dat has gat ta be de shartist fookin runway in de world!"


Shamus replied, "Yes, Paddy, but da ya see how fookin wide it is?"

 

[Pervis]

75% in favor.

 

[NJAowner]

NetJets' 2800 pilots Just Dusted Warren Buffet

sorry - psoted in wrong spot

 

[D_G]

Now the company can start bragging about record profits

 

[acaTerry]

Just remember that YOU, the NetJets PIC's, are the ones that decided to do this to your FO's. Sit down, and don't look to the right. It would be too uncomfortable.

Not a very fair assessment. Yes the SICs could have gotten better (especially the 11 year SICs who are still pay frozen to one raise per year instead of two like everyone else), but so could have the PICs. A number of these PICs paid for SICs to make it to pickets. Whatever anyone voted or feels, don't blame a particular group. I invite any and all PICs I fly with to look right as long as they can stand the look of my mug.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Now that it's official, can someone point me to a link where I can read the full TA.

Thanks in advance.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Now that it's official, can someone point me to a link where I can read the full TA.

Thanks in advance.

No public link that I know of.

 

[NJAowner]

Someone sent me a bunch of pilot jokes the other day -- this one was funny - no offense intended to the FOs who fly me safely - but it could go here

What is the difference between a jet engine and an FO? The engines stop whining when you shut down the plane and leave the airport.

Sorry guys.

 

[imacdog]

Yeah.......that one's about as old as jet engines have been around and usually doesn't specify seat.......

 

[acaTerry]

Yeah. It never amazes me how many uninformed people (especially reporters) still say "copilot". Never saw a Copilot License, or a guy who doesn't take off, fly, and land the plane as much as the "Pilot".

 

[CA1900]

Yeah. It never amazes me how many uninformed people (especially reporters) still say "copilot". Never saw a Copilot License, or a guy who doesn't take off, fly, and land the plane as much as the "Pilot".

My own parents still ask me when I'll get to be a pilot. I've given up on trying to explain it for the hundredth time.

 

[acaTerry]

My own parents still ask me when I'll get to be a pilot. I've given up on trying to explain it for the hundredth time.

The only people who think we're real pilots are the curbside bums nagging us for money.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The only people who think we're real pilots are the curbside bums nagging us for money.

I didn't NAG you so much as just "ask".....:beer:

 

[gunfyter]

If this contract is approved, and IF many pilots leave, can NJA increase pilot compensation to stop the attrition? If so, how would that come about?

Yes. They can put everyone on PIC pay or raise the SIC pay to 80%.

$17 billion worth of airplanes are going to looks pretty stupid parked on ramps instead of flying because SIC shortage. .

 

[Super_Cub_2414P]

Yes. They can put everyone on PIC pay or raise the SIC pay to 80%.

$17 billion worth of airplanes are going to looks pretty stupid parked on ramps instead of flying because SIC shortage. .

Now there is some good thinking, 11 years and 80% of PIC pay, I would be ok with that, but 100K at 11 years is tough to accept. 120K wouldn't be such a punch in the throat.

 

[NachoMamma]

Yes. They can put everyone on PIC pay or raise the SIC pay to 80%.

$17 billion worth of airplanes are going to looks pretty stupid parked on ramps instead of flying because SIC shortage. .

Agreed...No self respcting, even margianally qualified pilot, would agree to work here knowing that will mathematically never upgrade here - no matter how old they are now.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Agreed...No self respcting, even margianally qualified pilot, would agree to work here knowing that will mathematically never upgrade here - no matter how old they are now.

Except a mandatory-retired 121 pilot who:

A) Has 3 ex-wives to pay off.

B) Had his pension raided by management and is stuck with PBGC pennies on the dollar.

C) Just really likes to fly for a buck and isn't ready to hang it up yet.

This is where the majority of new hires will come from over the next decade unless the FAA pulls their head out of their rectum and realizes that, if it is unsafe to pilot a 737 for United the day after you turn 65 (or 67, or whatever), then it is unsafe to pilot ANY aircraft for compensation after that age.

Either apply mandatory retirement to ALL compensated flying or have NO mandatory retirement at all.

PICK ONE.

 

[realityman]

Except a mandatory-retired 121 pilot who:

A) Has 3 ex-wives to pay off.

B) Had his pension raided by management and is stuck with PBGC pennies on the dollar.

C) Just really likes to fly for a buck and isn't ready to hang it up yet.

This is where the majority of new hires will come from over the next decade unless the FAA pulls their head out of their rectum and realizes that, if it is unsafe to pilot a 737 for United the day after you turn 65 (or 67, or whatever), then it is unsafe to pilot ANY aircraft for compensation after that age.

Either apply mandatory retirement to ALL compensated flying or have NO mandatory retirement at all.

PICK ONE.

Gut,

I gotta disagree with you here. First, I think having raised the retirement age to 65 is going to dry up that pool of pilots in a significant way for us, The aging process is unique to each of us, but there's a fairly big difference from someone coming out of the 121 world at 60 and someone at 65. That extra five years of income from the 121 world is a pretty big deal.

There are some who just aren't ready to hang it up yet. However, at the age of 65, if they don't really need the money I think a lot of those folks won't be sticking around here very long. The churn rate could potentially be huge for us amongst F/O's who are leaving for the airlines and retired 121 folks who, after just a year or two, discover just how difficult being a fractional pilot is for someone in their twilight years.

My experience is that people, in general, are fairly short sighted. Imagine you're a relatively young pilot with a little experience under your belt. Sure, you'd like to end up an airline pilot. But you've got bills to pay, and probably even some pretty big student loans still looming over your head. So you look at NJA's starting pay and that of the regionals (and let's not forget the bennies!). Yeah, the really smart ones will suck it up for a year or two and go fly for the regionals, get a quick upgrade and start racking up the PIC time the majors want. However, I think most will only see the money and bennies without really looking hard at upgrade times and be more than happy to come here.

Then there are the charter pilots as well as those of other fractionals who would love to work here (if our EMT were smart, they'd give preferential hiring to other fractional pilots).

All in all, I'm not convinced we'll have a hard time finding pilots outside of retired 121. The only thing I see being a big problem for us is the training pipeline. If we ever get into a growth phase again we're going to be really hurting. We simply don't have the training capacity to keep up with a healthy airline industry hiring away from us while trying to replace them AND hire for growth. It could get ugly. We'll see.