The next vote, December 20th

[imacdog]

Yeah.......that one's about as old as jet engines have been around and usually doesn't specify seat.......

 

[acaTerry]

Yeah. It never amazes me how many uninformed people (especially reporters) still say "copilot". Never saw a Copilot License, or a guy who doesn't take off, fly, and land the plane as much as the "Pilot".

 

[CA1900]

Yeah. It never amazes me how many uninformed people (especially reporters) still say "copilot". Never saw a Copilot License, or a guy who doesn't take off, fly, and land the plane as much as the "Pilot".

My own parents still ask me when I'll get to be a pilot. I've given up on trying to explain it for the hundredth time.

 

[acaTerry]

My own parents still ask me when I'll get to be a pilot. I've given up on trying to explain it for the hundredth time.

The only people who think we're real pilots are the curbside bums nagging us for money.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The only people who think we're real pilots are the curbside bums nagging us for money.

I didn't NAG you so much as just "ask".....:beer:

 

[gunfyter]

If this contract is approved, and IF many pilots leave, can NJA increase pilot compensation to stop the attrition? If so, how would that come about?

Yes. They can put everyone on PIC pay or raise the SIC pay to 80%.

$17 billion worth of airplanes are going to looks pretty stupid parked on ramps instead of flying because SIC shortage. .

 

[Super_Cub_2414P]

Yes. They can put everyone on PIC pay or raise the SIC pay to 80%.

$17 billion worth of airplanes are going to looks pretty stupid parked on ramps instead of flying because SIC shortage. .

Now there is some good thinking, 11 years and 80% of PIC pay, I would be ok with that, but 100K at 11 years is tough to accept. 120K wouldn't be such a punch in the throat.

 

[NachoMamma]

Yes. They can put everyone on PIC pay or raise the SIC pay to 80%.

$17 billion worth of airplanes are going to looks pretty stupid parked on ramps instead of flying because SIC shortage. .

Agreed...No self respcting, even margianally qualified pilot, would agree to work here knowing that will mathematically never upgrade here - no matter how old they are now.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Agreed...No self respcting, even margianally qualified pilot, would agree to work here knowing that will mathematically never upgrade here - no matter how old they are now.

Except a mandatory-retired 121 pilot who:

A) Has 3 ex-wives to pay off.

B) Had his pension raided by management and is stuck with PBGC pennies on the dollar.

C) Just really likes to fly for a buck and isn't ready to hang it up yet.

This is where the majority of new hires will come from over the next decade unless the FAA pulls their head out of their rectum and realizes that, if it is unsafe to pilot a 737 for United the day after you turn 65 (or 67, or whatever), then it is unsafe to pilot ANY aircraft for compensation after that age.

Either apply mandatory retirement to ALL compensated flying or have NO mandatory retirement at all.

PICK ONE.

 

[realityman]

Except a mandatory-retired 121 pilot who:

A) Has 3 ex-wives to pay off.

B) Had his pension raided by management and is stuck with PBGC pennies on the dollar.

C) Just really likes to fly for a buck and isn't ready to hang it up yet.

This is where the majority of new hires will come from over the next decade unless the FAA pulls their head out of their rectum and realizes that, if it is unsafe to pilot a 737 for United the day after you turn 65 (or 67, or whatever), then it is unsafe to pilot ANY aircraft for compensation after that age.

Either apply mandatory retirement to ALL compensated flying or have NO mandatory retirement at all.

PICK ONE.

Gut,

I gotta disagree with you here. First, I think having raised the retirement age to 65 is going to dry up that pool of pilots in a significant way for us, The aging process is unique to each of us, but there's a fairly big difference from someone coming out of the 121 world at 60 and someone at 65. That extra five years of income from the 121 world is a pretty big deal.

There are some who just aren't ready to hang it up yet. However, at the age of 65, if they don't really need the money I think a lot of those folks won't be sticking around here very long. The churn rate could potentially be huge for us amongst F/O's who are leaving for the airlines and retired 121 folks who, after just a year or two, discover just how difficult being a fractional pilot is for someone in their twilight years.

My experience is that people, in general, are fairly short sighted. Imagine you're a relatively young pilot with a little experience under your belt. Sure, you'd like to end up an airline pilot. But you've got bills to pay, and probably even some pretty big student loans still looming over your head. So you look at NJA's starting pay and that of the regionals (and let's not forget the bennies!). Yeah, the really smart ones will suck it up for a year or two and go fly for the regionals, get a quick upgrade and start racking up the PIC time the majors want. However, I think most will only see the money and bennies without really looking hard at upgrade times and be more than happy to come here.

Then there are the charter pilots as well as those of other fractionals who would love to work here (if our EMT were smart, they'd give preferential hiring to other fractional pilots).

All in all, I'm not convinced we'll have a hard time finding pilots outside of retired 121. The only thing I see being a big problem for us is the training pipeline. If we ever get into a growth phase again we're going to be really hurting. We simply don't have the training capacity to keep up with a healthy airline industry hiring away from us while trying to replace them AND hire for growth. It could get ugly. We'll see.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I just flew with a retired 121 pilot who was forced out 10 years ago (do the math) and is STILL here despite, by his own admission, having more money than he will be able to spend in his lifetime.

There will be PLENTY of 65 year-olds wanting to "see how the other half lives" before hanging it up and our management will be happy to oblige. It isn't about money. It's about being told they have to quit and they don't want to.

They won't be the only source of switch monkeys but a significant one. I just wish the FAA would figure out that either you're safe to fly for compensation after a certain age or you're not. They blew the chance to harmonize the rule when the age was raised to 65.

Although I agree with you on the training pipeline issue, I wouldn't worry too much about growth. If we're LUCKY, the fleet will grow by a handful of airplanes a year and the new Section 19 will provide plenty of 72 and 76 day pilots to cover the schedule. We won't need as many newbies as you think.

 

[NachoMamma]

unless the FAA pulls their head out of their rectum and realizes that, if it is unsafe to pilot a 737 for United the day after you turn 65 (or 67, or whatever), then it is unsafe to pilot ANY aircraft for compensation after that age.

Either apply mandatory retirement to ALL compensated flying or have NO mandatory retirement at all.

PICK ONE.

Couldn't agree with you more here...however, the average geezer pilot here gets pretty upset when they hear this line of reasoning. Then they shake their bony fist at you and tell you that they're being discriminated against because of their age. Then they fall asleep.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Couldn't agree with you more here...however, the average geezer pilot here gets pretty upset when they hear this line of reasoning. Then they shake their bony fist at you and tell you that they're being discriminated against because of their age. Then they fall asleep.

Yep.

They never read the second part either. The part about how there should either be the same mandatory retirement age OR NO MANDATORY RETIREMENT AGE AT ALL.

The strangest thing to me is that the people who pound the table hardest about ONE LEVEL OF SAFETY when it comes to harmonizing our rest rules to 121 are usually the same people most vehemently against mandatory retirement for 91K/135. That includes the leader of our PAC and is the main reason I will not donate to it.

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

 

[imacdog]

Couldn't agree with you more here...however, the average geezer pilot here gets pretty upset when they hear this line of reasoning. Then they shake their bony fist at you and tell you that they're being discriminated against because of their age. Then they fall asleep.

Then get upset about being turned into fitness for duty.

 

[Waldom]

I just took the Fitness for Duty CBT and have to say that I support it wholeheartedly.... and this from a barnacle that just turned sixty. I have had the experience of taking Grandpa for an airplane ride for a week and have to attest that flying single pilot is not the safest operation an operator can provide.

I have always hoped that I would recognize the time when the highest performance airplane I operate should be my Cub and gracefully bow out. In case I don't, this program provides a way to eliminate the problem. I won't hesitate to use it myself and hope that the people that fly with me feel the same way if I start missing too much.