Why hire military over your competition?

[SWA Bubba]

As crazy as it sounds, SWA doesn't ask my advice on hiring and is certainly better off for it.

Well, at least you said ONE thing about pilot hiring that I can agree with.

I have no idea what all the criteria that this independent company uses to rate applicants, but I assume that they've weighed a lot of things that you and I haven't even considered. And I also assume that their criteria are those that have been vetted and approved by the airlines that use them (Southwest, American, etc.).

Hey, I have an idea, Wave-- why don't you start your own pilot rating company that heavily weighs all the Cessna time and other stuff you bitch about, and disregards any military fighter time, and downplays all other military time. Then you can see if even a single airline hiring board agrees with your idea of what makes a good pilot applicant.

Bubba

 

[Pirate]

Since the majors have started their hiring in the last few months the vast majority of newhires have been military. That's a fact and the entire reason for making this post.

Mudslinging aside, I simply ask why. Why would you hire someone in the military over your competition that wouldn't need to consolidate their hours and has already flown your aircraft? It makes no sense. We all know it and yet anyone who asks why gets sidetracked with the back and forth of who is better online. Forget about online and accept that there is currently mass discrimination for military over civilian right now. Some posts have said to get over it... well that's not so easily done in our seniority based system. It's unfair and it shouldn't be defended.

When you have an entire newhire class at Southwest that is military that is wrong. Same goes for the Delta and AA hiring lately.

I have immense respect for the military pilots. I simply don't accept the current hiring standards are justified.

What percent of ATP rated pilots are military? 5%? 10%? Yet they receive 80-90-100% of newhire slots at the majors? C'mon already.

How many of the magical 26 had 121 time? How long after a "military" guy has been in a 121 operation do you stop referring to him as a "military" guy.

I know a few military guys that were picked up recently. All had gotten off active duty and spent time in the guard while they flew either 121 or 135.

Some of you don't want facts. You just want to be butt hurt.

 

[labbats]

I would say one year at a 135 or 121 outfit would dismiss the military equivalent.

Ok, now your turn. How many of that Southwest class meet that criteria? Now how about at AA? Delta?

You'll find a let less of an inclination to be butthurt as you so eloquently put it and a lot more substance to the fact that a minority of pilots are getting the majority of jobs.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I would say one year at a 135 or 121 outfit would dismiss the military equivalent.

Ok, now your turn. How many of that Southwest class meet that criteria? Now how about at AA? Delta?

You'll find a let less of an inclination to be butthurt as you so eloquently put it and a lot more substance to the fact that a minority of pilots are getting the majority of jobs.

Again, I say BS.

Who knows how many military-trained guys in a specific class had 135 or 121 experience between the military and here? A fair portion of them, you can be sure. I've flown with a bunch of military-trained F/Os who spent time at Kalitta or a regional or a fractional or whatever, before they got hired here. Also remember, the last numbers that Capt Calkin put out mentioned that only 45% of our pilot force had "military experience." And, that 45% includes the guys who were ground pounders and non-pilots in the military and then got their flight ratings in the civilian world, as well as the military pilots who flew cargo, corporate or regionals before they got here. That means significantly less than 45% of our pilots came straight from a military cockpit to Southwest.

You're exactly like Wave in its regard: you use one snapshot, considering neither the historical numbers nor even the military-with-civilian-experience numbers from your own friggin' sample, to indict a culture and whine about poor, poor civilian pilots (who clearly are "better" than military-trained, according to Wave).

You know, since greater than 55% of Southwest's pilot force were all civilian-trained, and then even more percentage had significant civilian flying experience prior to Southwest, then obviously there were many, many new hire classes here that had a preponderance of civilian-trained guys in them. Funny, I don't remember the military guys ever whining like little b1tches about it when that happens.

Bubba

 

[labbats]

I suppose you could say I'm whining if you see it that way, but I've gone out of my way to be respectful and find out the reasoning. Seems the last few posts have been full of venom. I don't see the point.

If you want to say that the hiring in the last 5-6 months is primarily civilian then I disagree... strongly. Seems you want to skew facts away from my argument that the current regime caters to military by showing the entire seniority list. So be it. I'm discussing current events, you're discussing decades. I'm also discussing AA and Delta while you focus solely on Southwest.

 

[maru657]

This is nothing new, remember Delta only hired military trained pilots up untill the 80-s. On the other hand, that's one group that could NEVER afford to risk a strike.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Interesting bit here from "Flying The Line 2" about the 1985 UAL Strike. There's a bit of discussion on UAL's hiring practices through the 60's and 70's and specifically how UAL was seeking a "placidity factor" in their pilots. Major airlines aren't simply hiring a pilot for a stint, once you're off probation you're basically theirs until you retire.

Perhaps some of what UAL sought in the past, is what airlines still seek today for their pilot employees.

http://www.alpa.org/publications/Flying_The_Line_II/FTL2Chapter15.html

 

[b737jock]

Like I said we all will get our day to Interview where we want it just might take some time. I know seniority is everything but fighting on a forum is not going to change a thing. I am a civilian pilot but have spent as much time flying into Afghanistan as a reserve C-17 pilot. the difference is i do it in a 747. I dont think either one is better just a different avenue to learn to fly. I tried to get a flight slot in the Navy when I was enlisted but at that time only academy grads were getting slots. No harm no foul I just went civilian. I have a knack for bad timing I guess. I will end up where I am meant to be when it is my time. Until then I will enjoy flying the whale.

 

[waveflyer]

Really? Like YOUR sense of superiority? Like YOUR sense of entitlement due to your flight experiences? You've bitched time and again about military guys saying they were better, and then, from the other side of your mouth insist that civilian-trained pilots are "better." Tell, me Wave: exactly what is the difference between a military guy disparaging you by saying his training was better, and YOU disparaging military guys saying that your training is better? Do you really not see that it's exactly the same?

And no, I'm not saying that it's "civilians" who are making this job hard online. I'm saying that it's elitists like the "kernals" you describe, and in addition the civilians like YOU who insist that they're better, that tribalize the pilot force and make the job harder. Is that any clearer for you?

Bubba

Bubba,
Thanks for all the internet attention. I appreciate it. Really.

My sense of superiority doesn't come from being a civilian pilot, it comes from walking around being me all day.

Bubba, this isn't a who came first, chicken or egg-

So let me ask you- ever been through the Phoenix base?
Is it possible that you can't see the military attitude and polarization that you don't like, because the main perpetrators treat you with more respect bc of your background?
Think that's possible?

Also, air tran hired a lot more civilian pilots than military. If SWA is now hiring more military than civilian to even it out, would that be acceptable to you?

Do you think that would be right?

Btw, I have never said that civilian training is better. I would put many civilian flight schools on par with any training, including military, as well as many 121 training departments as pilots make that step to turbine aircraft. But it isn't about training for me. It's experience.
Answer this, why do civilian pilots need 2-4 TIMES the amount of flight time, when they're flight time is the most applicable?

Argue that for me? Justify it?

 

[DCAA320]

I would put many civilian flight schools on par with any training, including military,

I know you don't agree, but sometimes you should just STFU, just saying as a friend bro

Civilian flight schools are a business. If they bust people, less will come.

Not going to type paragraphs of rhetoric because you are stuck on your opinions, that's dangerous.

Fly safe, have a nice day.

 

[waveflyer]

Thanks friend bro
I'm sure you speak from vast experience in the civilian world so....
Fly safe yourself

 

[pilotyip]

I would put many civilian flight schools on par with any training, including military

name me one civilian school that starts in turbine equipment? Name one where at 250 you have 200 hours of TJ time? Name one that has a screening exam that one in five passes? Name one where the average ACT score is close to 29? Civilian schools are a pay your fee get your B outfits/ Fail a phase check, get more training, try again. In the military school final phase go to the student pilots disposition board

 

[Flyer1015]

Interesting bit here from "Flying The Line 2" about the 1985 UAL Strike. There's a bit of discussion on UAL's hiring practices through the 60's and 70's and specifically how UAL was seeking a "placidity factor" in their pilots. Major airlines aren't simply hiring a pilot for a stint, once you're off probation you're basically theirs until you retire.

Perhaps some of what UAL sought in the past, is what airlines still seek today for their pilot employees.

http://www.alpa.org/publications/Flying_The_Line_II/FTL2Chapter15.html

When Flying the Line Volume III is written, there will be at least three chapters about the East pilots in the US/AWA merger and LOA 93.

 

[maru657]

"Wave" has a point. Airlines aren't looking for superior training or skill with military trained pilots and certainly not applicable experience. There looking for obedient servants. The downside is we seem to have to re-invent windshear and icing every few years. I'll bet that with that regional background, Wave can do a circle to land NDB approach on one engine while doing the crossword. You might want to knock his "Cessna training" but I've flown with a lot of these commuter pilots. I could never fault their flying skills or experience.

 

[pilotyip]

" There looking for obedient servants.

and pilots coming from any background are not obedient servants to a the GOM, Op Specs, FARs, DO, CP, and the union contract?

 

[nordo_2]

and pilots coming from any background are not obedient servants to a the GOM, Op Specs, FARs, DO, CP, and the union contract?

Not accepting status quo as gospel. Small acts of defiance. Like just exercising a vote of choice. Pushing against managements advances which serves to create an imbalance in a work/employee environment. Some, not all military guys have an I trust my leadership too much mentality.

 

[waveflyer]

name me one civilian school that starts in turbine equipment? Name one where at 250 you have 200 hours of TJ time? Name one that has a screening exam that one in five passes? Name one where the average ACT score is close to 29? Civilian schools are a pay your fee get your B outfits/ Fail a phase check, get more training, try again. In the military school final phase go to the student pilots disposition board

If you'd been paying attention yip, you'd know that I already mentioned this. It's actually illegal for a pilot to fly 121 with less than an ATP- and most turbine time is wrapped up in 121 today. Even the old 1900 and metro liner operators got pressed into becoming 121- and now ANOTHER ARTIFICIAL BARRIER to that turbine time is up- (as if flight instructing for that much longer will make the step up to turbine easier for any pilot- all it does is make the career harder for the civilian)
As far as primary training- is your argument that flying a turbine is more challenging than a light recip? Does more for a new pilot?
More powerful yes, but turbines are also a lot more reliable and you have enough power and control to get yourself out of anything- I don't disrespect my light airplane experience when it came to developing my judgement and abilities.
Besides, I've never argued that a pilot go straight to the majors with no turbine experience. That's more ridiculous than a fighter guy going straight to the majors.
So if a pilot went to Arizona state (somehow survived flight school with all those girls) and did well in the Lufthansa program they don't have a great foundation in your view?
North Dakota is just pay to play? So is FIT? Spartan? The old Comair academy? Even riddle? Those weren't good tough programs that wouldn't fail pilots?
It is true that if you can finance it, you'll get more opportunities to keep flying- but what on earth is so wrong with that in a capitalistic world? You still have to complete the work and are evaluated at every step. Isn't one of the big kernel qualities the pilot who still flies every leg like he's competing with you? I have no problem with a pilot who took their time on their training and eventually got it down. And usually the only reason they'll let a weak student keep going is bc instructors need that flight time anyway. Why turn them down? The only time that's ever frustrating is when it's daddy keeping the money flowing, but for most of us, financing flight school is one of the biggest obstacles to the career. Loans in my day were very hard to get, so I had tons of pressure to complete under budget. But by your argument, no educational program could be any good bc you pay for it??? I had no idea that Stanford and MIT are now easy to graduate from bc their students pay so much money for them.

What I've said is BS is a fighter guy coming in with 2000 hours and that fighter time ACTUALLY adjusted UP to artificially make them more qualified, when a civilian has to have 6000-10000 hours in transport category 121 airplanes for the same opportunity. And they've been actually doing the job THEYRE BEING HIRED TO DO
How do you argue that yip? How is that not discrimination?

I've said it before, every mil pilot ought to have to fly in the regionals for a year before they get on with a major.
It should be an industry standard qualification. And fighter guys ought to have 2.

 

[SWA Bubba]

So let me ask you- ever been through the Phoenix base?
Is it possible that you can't see the military attitude and polarization that you don't like, because the main perpetrators treat you with more respect bc of your background?
Think that's possible?

Of course I have. There's obviously a lot of former AF guys there, F-16-ers from the Luke area. And while there is a lot of them there, I don't think a lot of them are still carrying the "military attitude and polarization" that you think. I spent my first nearly 7 years there as an F/O, and there was only two or three former AF captains that I flew with who still seemed to think they were still in the military. And I agree that's not a whole lot of fun; anymore than the two civilian-trained captains in PHX that treated me like sh1t, just because I had been former military.

Also, air tran hired a lot more civilian pilots than military. If SWA is now hiring more military than civilian to even it out, would that be acceptable to you?

Do you think that would be right?

No, of course not. I've never said that. They should hire whoever's qualified, and more importantly, whoever has a good attitude--whether that comes from the military or civilian world. I couldn't really give less of a crap where a pilot comes from, as long as they fit in this world.

Btw, I have never said that civilian training is better. I would put many civilian flight schools on par with any training, including military, as well as many 121 training departments as pilots make that step to turbine aircraft. But it isn't about training for me. It's experience.
Answer this, why do civilian pilots need 2-4 TIMES the amount of flight time, when they're flight time is the most applicable?

Argue that for me? Justify it?

Actually, you HAVE argued that civilian training and experience is better, even claiming Cessna experience as equivalent to military, as if that kind of Part 91 has anything to do with the kind of flying we do now.

And I agree that it's experience that counts. And that's why essentially every pilot employer out there counts the first 1000-1500 hours of military as "better," or more applicable than the first 1000-1500 hours of civilian time. Military guys are gaining experience in turbines, multi-engines, high altitude, multi-controller environment, and real cross-country, not to mention international experience, in that first 1000hrs. Not so much your average civilian-trained. Although, as I've said, certainly after that period, both guys are gaining valuable experience.

And please, not with the 121 stuff again. It's not the big deal that you want to make it. Literally within 2-3 months in the right seat, the 121 rules are ingrained just like every other set of rules a pilot may have learned. It's the experience flying, running procedures, working airports, weather, ATC issues and irregular ops that matters. And that all comes from time in a seat, and not whether or not you're used to working with rampers, ops agents and passengers.

And I'm not sure I believe your comparison that a civilian guy needs "2-4 times" the flight experience (and you keep making that number larger and larger every time you argue--later on you even equate 2000 mil hours to 10,000 civ hours). I don't believe it's compared with anywhere near that big of a difference. Especially even after you note that the first 1000 hours of civilian time in part 91 Cessnas bears nearly zero applicability to what we do now, compared to the first 1000 hours of military.

Whatever.

Why do you even care so much? Who cares who the company wants to hire, as long as they're behind you on the seniority list? Who cares what they did before, as long as they can do the job now with a good attitude? You really do seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this, and I can't figure out why. We still have much more than half trained the way you think they should be trained; isn't that good enough?

Bubba

 

[pilotyip]

Not accepting status quo as gospel. Small acts of defiance. Like just exercising a vote of choice. Pushing against managements advances which serves to create an imbalance in a work/employee environment. Some, not all military guys have an I trust my leadership too much mentality.

yea you may have point, the service guys are into service, it is part of their cult. Something about service to their country that draws they into the service. It is about what they gave give, and not upon what they can take.

If you'd been paying attention yip, you'd know that I already mentioned this. It's actually illegal for a pilot to fly 121 with less than an ATP-.

Sure I am paying attention and I know that you need an ATP to fly 121. But also other industry knows that a military pilot is so superior to a civilian training even with a college degree, that they allow the milady trained pilot to get an ATP with 750 hour. Quality of flight time counts with the industry.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I've said it before, every mil pilot ought to have to fly in the regionals for a year before they get on with a major.
It should be an industry standard qualification. And fighter guys ought to have 2.

Yes, you have said it--many times. However, have you noticed that absolutely nobody who has a hand in hiring at the majors agrees with your assessment? Wonder why...

Now I agree it would be hard, and probably not a good idea, to go straight from a military cockpit to the left seat, but that's not an issue for the majors. They all start in the right seat, and after a few months there, the 121 stuff is literally no... big... deal. Stop acting like that's the be-all, end-all of making a competent pilot.

Bubba

 

[maru657]

Once again, Airlines like military trained pilots because their easy. Programmed to obey. This is why ALPA is a joke, and please don't reference military service. Plenty of those so called civilian trained pilots had military experience. They just didn't have a degree or membership in the good old boys squadron club.

 

[Pirate]

I would say one year at a 135 or 121 outfit would dismiss the military equivalent.

Ok, now your turn. How many of that Southwest class meet that criteria? Now how about at AA? Delta?

I know 5 guys that have been hired in the past few months. All had time at either a 121 or 135 operator. However the first thing guys like you see is that they once wore a uniform or are still in the ANG and you label them a "military" guy. The fact is the hiring of pure 100% AD pilots is much less than those with other additional experience. It just doesn't fit the discrimination argument.

You keep pointing to the magical 26 as proof. You must know all their backgrounds. How many had 121 or 135 time?

 

[scoreboardII]

Not accepting status quo as gospel. Small acts of defiance. Like just exercising a vote of choice. Pushing against managements advances which serves to create an imbalance in a work/employee environment. Some, not all military guys have an I trust my leadership too much mentality.

It's a not a trust thing, it's a hope thing that if they don't make waves, nothing bad happens, it's not trust.

 

[Boxboy]

Pretty interesting thread. No one should claim any credibility until one has walked a mile in one's shoes. I sense inferiority complex amongst some posters. Flying skills are based on each individual... yes, I agree, civilian or military background. To say that a military guy, whether fighter/single seat or heavy/multi-crew experience, should fly at a regional carrier before going to the majors is ludicrous.
Think for a minute before opening one's pie hole as to not make a jackass of oneself. Is the military that naive to send a 23 year old out on a mission strapped to a jet worth 8 figures with just a few hundred hours in type? How about a 25 year old in command of a C/KC-xx transport type aircraft worth 9 figures flying all over the world? Our military has achieved air superiority in every single war/conflict. We must be doing something right. Airline flying is point A to point B. I'm pretty confident that our military boys and girls can do that effectively while mastering 121/91 rules.

 

[pilotyip]

What I've said is BS is a fighter guy coming in with 2000 hours and that fighter time ACTUALLY adjusted UP to artificially make them more qualified, when a civilian has to have 6000-10000 hours in transport category 121 airplanes for the same opportunity. And they've been actually doing the job THEYRE BEING HIRED TO DO
How do you argue that yip? How is that not discrimination?.

You know you could just say "Thank You for your service" After all your ability to be anything you want to be is due to freedom's found in this country. There is someone to thank for those freedoms. They really put up with a lot of stuff most civilians do not have to put up with. Like being home with a new born only 6 months of 24, because of the needs of service. These guys take great pride in their service and it doesn't rub off all that easy. As these vet's approach their final days, when they look back on a their lives almost universally they view their days in the service as among the most meaningful of their lives.

Since you were never there, I doubt you would understand.

 

[nordo_2]

You know you could just say "Thank You for your service" After all your ability to be anything you want to be is due to freedom's found in this country. There is someone to thank for those freedoms. They really put up with a lot of stuff most civilians do not have to put up with. Like being home with a new born only 6 months of 24, because of the needs of service. These guys take great pride in their service and it doesn't rub off all that easy. As these vet's approach their final days, when they look back on a their lives almost universally they view their days in the service as among the most meaningful of their lives.

Since you were never there, I doubt you would understand.

Veterans come in all types. This thread seems to forgo a civilian trained aviator as a veteran. Military service and pilot are not exclusive to each other. I don't want to creep into my service is more valid than yours. Better to argue the merits of the training and experience as a pilot, not a veteran.

 

[pilotyip]

Veterans come in all types. This thread seems to forgo a civilian trained aviator as a veteran. Military service and pilot are not exclusive to each other. I don't want to creep into my service is more valid than yours. Better to argue the merits of the training and experience as a pilot, not a veteran.

That is true they come in all flavors, and I knew enlisted aircrew types who wanted to become airline pilots, good guys and a lot them made it. The post was directed at those who seen resentful of a military trained pilot being hired at an airline because they are not a s good as them. Fortunately they are not on the pilot selection committee, but maybe in their next TA they could exclude military trained pilots, think that would float?

 

[maru657]

It's this simple. Look at who gravitates to management. Military pilots. They set the hiring standards. I saw an application once that wanted flight time broken down in ridiculous increments. Something the military uses. When you figure a 20 year career might net them possibly all of 3000 hours. No flight allowed into areas of boxed weather and once again this is why we have to re-invent windshear every few years or so with it's attendant training requirements because it can't be that kernel blowhard and his "Co" major spread were incompetent to begin with.

 

[SWA Bubba]

It's this simple. Look at who gravitates to management. Military pilots. They set the hiring standards. I saw an application once that wanted flight time broken down in ridiculous increments. Something the military uses. When you figure a 20 year career might net them possibly all of 3000 hours. No flight allowed into areas of boxed weather and once again this is why we have to re-invent windshear every few years or so with it's attendant training requirements because it can't be that kernel blowhard and his "Co" major spread were incompetent to begin with.

It is pretty simple.

It's pretty obvious as a "1st class civilian," that you don't have the first friggin' clue about anything to do with the military. Nothing. Nothing about military flight hours, nothing about military flying in weather, and as you continually prove time and again, nothing about even airline flying in this decade, or even the last.

You're an old, retired dinosaur, who for some reason, turns up on FI every now and again simply to throw random turds. You wouldn't know a "kernel" unless you picked it out of your own turd. You bring to the table absolutely no facts, no rational argument, and no discourse one can address; you just spew insults. I guess today's random insult is about military pilots. What happened?--Did they forget your pudding again at the home today?

Tell you what, Maru, when we need advice on what the airlines were like in the day of the DC-6 or the DC-8 (and the pillbox hat on stewardesses), then we'll call you. Or if we need union advice about how to deal with Frank Lorenzo or George Meany, we'll look you up. Or if we want to know how to spit on servicemembers like you did in the early 1970s Viet Nam era, then you're our guy. Until then, please expect to have your random, vile crapola dismissed as that of a senile old man.

Whew!... -I- sure feel better now. How about you?

Bubba

 

[pilotyip]

Whew!... -I- sure feel better now. How about you?

Bubba

Wow, you must feel better. It is amazing how all these guys who have never walked in the shoes of a military pilot know so much about the inadequacy of these military trained pilots.

I know I was exposed to things at a total time of 150 hours than no civilian ever sees in an entire career. I know that at a 1000 hours I had no idea how to enter the traffic pattern at a civilian airport, but planning a flight as a Aircraft Commander across the Atlantic or Pacific was so routine that it was no big deal. Learning to be a 121 pilot is just another training evolution.