If you're voting YES...

[JustaNumber]

If you're voting YES, would you mind please explaining your rationale? Because I'm not seeing it. (This is directed at XJT guys, but also applies at several other regionals...)

Let's look at the facts. They are threatening to wind down the company if we vote no. But they are not guaranteeing, or even suggesting, that we will not be wound down if we vote yes. At least with all the other concessionary contracts at other loser regionals, some kind of carrot was dangled next to the stick.

Furthermore, if you think that a mere 2% cost savings, within only one department of the company, is going to make the difference between a company surviving and thriving, or wasting away to nothing, then you're not intelligent enough to be piloting an airliner. And if you believe that all the non-financial "power and control" issues will make or break the company, then you should relinquish your medical immediately for psychological impairment reasons.

"Being Comaired" is the phrase being thrown around the industry lately, but the Comair guys took all the concessions thrown at them, and it made not one bit of difference to their fate. The fate of entire airlines is not decided based on the outcome of union votes. Every airline's fate is already determined by upper management; you just get to play the scapegoat.

So why do you YES guys believe anything different?

 

[Freebrd]

With 117 coming in play best to vote NO, remain under our current contracts, rid ourselves of MEC Newie & buddies, hire real professional negotiators ( screw ALPA) and fight next year when hopefully they can't find anyone to fill the seats.

 

[WSurf]

If you're voting YES, would you mind please explaining your rationale? Because I'm not seeing it. (This is directed at XJT guys, but also applies at several other regionals...)

Let's look at the facts. They are threatening to wind down the company if we vote no. But they are not guaranteeing, or even suggesting, that we will not be wound down if we vote yes. At least with all the other concessionary contracts at other loser regionals, some kind of carrot was dangled next to the stick.

Furthermore, if you think that a mere 2% cost savings, within only one department of the company, is going to make the difference between a company surviving and thriving, or wasting away to nothing, then you're not intelligent enough to be piloting an airliner. And if you believe that all the non-financial "power and control" issues will make or break the company, then you should relinquish your medical immediately for psychological impairment reasons.

"Being Comaired" is the phrase being thrown around the industry lately, but the Comair guys took all the concessions thrown at them, and it made not one bit of difference to their fate. The fate of entire airlines is not decided based on the outcome of union votes. Every airline's fate is already determined by upper management; you just get to play the scapegoat.

So why do you YES guys believe anything different?

Basically put............. Better to die while standing then to die on your knees.

 

[slick1]

With 117 coming in play best to vote NO, remain under our current contracts, rid ourselves of MEC Newie & buddies, hire real professional negotiators ( screw ALPA) and fight next year when hopefully they can't find anyone to fill the seats.

^^^^^^ This. ^^^^

 

[Mickey Mouse]

Let the company worry about the fleet size. Let the pilots worry about flying professionally and retaining at least the current work rules and compensation. Don't get lured into the disinformation campaign; it's not real. What is real and current is your paycheck and QOL work rules. Are you gonna attend your children's events as planned if you are on reserve, or is it another heartbreaking phone call from daddy, saying "I can't make it, my days off were moved again"? Are you gonna tolerate the left over schedules from PBS that include 7 days of airport sits with 14 hour duty days worth 4 hours of pay? Will you be happy deadheading home on the last leg of a 4 or 6 day trip for no pay? It's coming off your guarantee too. Will you blame yourself for voting yes when you get violated for an altitude or course deviation while flying your 4th CDO in a row and you were too tired to notice it? We have been down this road before. We secured many of the current work rules and QOL protections in our last and current contract. Some of you guys are about to piss it all away, all because you got spooked. BOO!

 

[JustaNumber]

Crickets...

Come on YES voters, don't be bashful, you're anonymous here. What's your thinking?

 

[Freebrd]

We secured many of the current work rules and QOL protections in our last and current contract. Some of you guys are about to piss it all away, all because you got spooked. BOO!

THIS! All the improvements since ALPA first came on property, not just the recent contracts. And they want a 5 year deal? FUPM!

 

[IBNAV8R]

Can't answer. I've never voted yes to ANY TA - EVER. Nor have I ever abstained.

 

[shadowpuppet]

Having been long since out of the piloting side of the industry, you guys are faced with an interesting problem. You have to come to the realization that you are outdated on one side of your merger (XJT), and un-competitive on another side of it (ASA). This leaves you in a precarious position. It's not any pilot groups fault, but the world around you has changed. Gone are the days when the network carriers owned and then sold off their regionals when they were in financial trouble to raise capital to stay afloat. These sales came with hefty profit margins built into the contracts that went with the sale. Now the network carriers are atoning for their sins by using their wholly owned regional carriers to put the squeeze on the independent regional airlines to lower the cost structure to meet their requirements for the future. You see there is one thing the network carriers hate to do more than anything else, finance RJ's for their regional carriers. Sure they will use a few aircraft as leverage to get their wholly owned airlines to play ball, but by and large they are looking for somebody else to do the heavy lifting.

This is where companies like SkyWest and Republic come into the fray. Both have money, both have the ability to finance, and both have labor problems. Neither can guarantee anything to their pilots in the way of aircraft or jobs at a major, yet they are due the lions share of the "new" aircraft coming online to feed the network carrier's machine. All of the wholly owned airlines have contractual guarantees for far less aircraft than they have currently, yet the pilots of the independents still cry foul. It stands to reason that there is a much brighter future for the independent pilots as far as stability is concerned if they allow their respective airlines to swallow up all of the growth that the network carriers make available. Major network carriers hate to finance aircraft to be operated by someone who can back away from them at a moments notice (Mesa), yet the pilots at Republic and XJT (who can bring their own aircraft to the table) seem to want to fight this opportunity at every step. It stands to reason that half of the regional airline pilots will be moving on to network carriers in the next 5-8 years, but where are you going to be in the mean time?

 

[JustaNumber]

Having been long since out of the piloting side of the industry, you guys are faced with an interesting problem. You have to come to the realization that you are outdated on one side of your merger (XJT), and un-competitive on another side of it (ASA). This leaves you in a precarious position. It's not any pilot groups fault, but the world around you has changed. Gone are the days when the network carriers owned and then sold off their regionals when they were in financial trouble to raise capital to stay afloat. These sales came with hefty profit margins built into the contracts that went with the sale. Now the network carriers are atoning for their sins by using their wholly owned regional carriers to put the squeeze on the independent regional airlines to lower the cost structure to meet their requirements for the future. You see there is one thing the network carriers hate to do more than anything else, finance RJ's for their regional carriers. Sure they will use a few aircraft as leverage to get their wholly owned airlines to play ball, but by and large they are looking for somebody else to do the heavy lifting.

This is where companies like SkyWest and Republic come into the fray. Both have money, both have the ability to finance, and both have labor problems. Neither can guarantee anything to their pilots in the way of aircraft or jobs at a major, yet they are due the lions share of the "new" aircraft coming online to feed the network carrier's machine. All of the wholly owned airlines have contractual guarantees for far less aircraft than they have currently, yet the pilots of the independents still cry foul. It stands to reason that there is a much brighter future for the independent pilots as far as stability is concerned if they allow their respective airlines to swallow up all of the growth that the network carriers make available. Major network carriers hate to finance aircraft to be operated by someone who can back away from them at a moments notice (Mesa), yet the pilots at Republic and XJT (who can bring their own aircraft to the table) seem to want to fight this opportunity at every step. It stands to reason that half of the regional airline pilots will be moving on to network carriers in the next 5-8 years, but where are you going to be in the mean time?

So which is it, do the majors hate purchasing aircraft more than anything else, or do they want feeder pilots who "meet their future cost structure requirements" within a 2% margin?

You make it sound like it is one set of regional pilots here who get to decide the fate of the future of the industry.

Perhaps it is Delta's decision to make here. From their perspective, if they really hate spending billions of dollars purchasing RJs, are they going to walk away from someone else buying the RJs because the pilots cost 2% more than their "cost structure requirements"? Will they step over dollars to pick up dimes?

Right now, this offer is not meeting my family's future cost structure requirements.

 

[skyman50]

So which is it, do the majors hate purchasing aircraft more than anything else, or do they want feeder pilots who "meet their future cost structure requirements" within a 2% margin?

You make it sound like it is one set of regional pilots here who get to decide the fate of the future of the industry.

Perhaps it is Delta's decision to make here. From their perspective, if they really hate spending billions of dollars purchasing RJs, are they going to walk away from someone else buying the RJs because the pilots cost 2% more than their "cost structure requirements"? Will they step over dollars to pick up dimes?

Right now, this offer is not meeting my family's future cost structure requirements.

Well Put>>>>>Vote NO

 

[CFIT]

Having been long since out of the piloting side of the industry, you guys are faced with an interesting problem. You have to come to the realization that you are outdated on one side of your merger (XJT), and un-competitive on another side of it (ASA). This leaves you in a precarious position. It's not any pilot groups fault, but the world around you has changed. Gone are the days when the network carriers owned and then sold off their regionals when they were in financial trouble to raise capital to stay afloat. These sales came with hefty profit margins built into the contracts that went with the sale. Now the network carriers are atoning for their sins by using their wholly owned regional carriers to put the squeeze on the independent regional airlines to lower the cost structure to meet their requirements for the future. You see there is one thing the network carriers hate to do more than anything else, finance RJ's for their regional carriers. Sure they will use a few aircraft as leverage to get their wholly owned airlines to play ball, but by and large they are looking for somebody else to do the heavy lifting.

This is where companies like SkyWest and Republic come into the fray. Both have money, both have the ability to finance, and both have labor problems. Neither can guarantee anything to their pilots in the way of aircraft or jobs at a major, yet they are due the lions share of the "new" aircraft coming online to feed the network carrier's machine. All of the wholly owned airlines have contractual guarantees for far less aircraft than they have currently, yet the pilots of the independents still cry foul. It stands to reason that there is a much brighter future for the independent pilots as far as stability is concerned if they allow their respective airlines to swallow up all of the growth that the network carriers make available. Major network carriers hate to finance aircraft to be operated by someone who can back away from them at a moments notice (Mesa), yet the pilots at Republic and XJT (who can bring their own aircraft to the table) seem to want to fight this opportunity at every step. It stands to reason that half of the regional airline pilots will be moving on to network carriers in the next 5-8 years, but where are you going to be in the mean time?

Sincerely, Bholt and Davenewie


There, fixed it for you!

 

[wms]

... Except in the last year all three majors bought large orders of crjs and e175s. The ml prefers to buy the planes and lease them to rj operators under cpas. That way they move airplanes at will without regionals pulling planes out from under them and without losing revenues from the planes in the process.

Skyw thinks buying the planes themselves will give them leverage with the ml partners and a carrot with pilots. They've been wrong on both accounts.

Of the six hundred orders and options they have, there's barely a commitment for a fraction of them. Even if they do find flying, the penalties for not meeting contractual obligations due to staffing will be substantial.

As the regional lift providers thin out, ml will either move capacity up, possibly flying those planes themselves, or the regionals will gain pricing power. In the mean time I'm not going to "pay for the sins" of my employer with what amounts to the loss of one month's pay per year and the reduction of qol which amounts to the destruction of family life.

I have confidence Skyw will make money with us one way or another or go under trying. But I'm not going to go back on food stamps until I leave while they figure it out.

 

[General Lee]

The problem for the a Regionals is ml scope clauses aren't going to allow unlimited 76 seaters, or anything larger. In good times, concessions are hard to come by. Thanks to Consolidation, better times for the remaining 3 legacies will stick around even longer. The Regionals can try to go it alone, like Indy Air, and probably falter the same way. Most Regionals don't participate largely in the advertising side, plus reservations, and all of the other perks that go along with feeding a legacy. Huge new costs would be incurred when starting an independent airline. Really doubtful.

But, good news is the big 3 will be hiring 15,000 in the next 10 years, with better pay, retirement, and variety. Good luck and Merry Xmas!




Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Freebrd]

Jenny Jenny Jenny, you missed wms's points completely. Has nothing to do with scope. SKYW and others will configure seats to comply with the scope limit. Thats a given. What we're talking about here is the company gutting our QOL and pay to keep their profits up so management can line their pockets. The ASA Pres got something like a $3-400K raise or more and now makes around $1.3 - $1.6 mil in salary alone! That's fine but don't come after our pay & benefits to make up for it!

 

[jetstream]

Maybe its time the pilots dangle a carrot in front of mainline management for a change. We come up with a pay scale for 100+ seat aircraft that is cheaper than the mainline pilots will fly them but more than what we make now. Then we tell mainline if they get scope relief we will fly them for that rate. Fight fire with fire.

The result could be growth and higher income earning opportunities at the regional level.

 

[wms]

I'd say demand equal or more than ml to fly the same planes, then ml will move even more capacity up creating more ml opportunities for pilots.

The regional pilots reps have been distracted by trying to keep regional jobs, not realizing we should be demanding more to make increasing capacity at the ml even more attractive to ml managements.

 

[JustaNumber]

I'd say demand equal or more than ml to fly the same planes, then ml will move even more capacity up creating more ml opportunities for pilots.

The regional pilots reps have been distracted by trying to keep regional jobs, not realizing we should be demanding more to make increasing capacity at the ml even more attractive to ml managements.

That may sound good, but certain interviewing/hiring decisions indicate that they may prefer to hire younger, more pliable type pilots. Translation--the guys making decent money at the regionals now, with experience and a backbone, may not be the ones moving up to ml.

Examples:

--Delta's preference for military pilots. Common sense says it's easier to train a guy to move from flying 121 pax out of C concourse, to flying 121 pax out of B concourse, than it is to train a guy who's used to flying single-pilot single-engine combat trips for the same job. Yet they prefer the military jocks because they have been indoctrinated to say "yes sir! how high sir?!"

--U.S. Airways' requirement for a training cycle within the last five years--keeps out the older, more experienced, more opinionated guys

--every major's preference for dangling interviews in front of pliable regional pilot groups. If you drink the kool-aide, you get the job.

If all regional guys stood to move right into those mainline jobs, regionals would have been integrated into the majors long ago. They don't want certain ones of us on their seniority lists. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[jetstream]

I'd say demand equal or more than ml to fly the same planes, then ml will move even more capacity up creating more ml opportunities for pilots.

The regional pilots reps have been distracted by trying to keep regional jobs, not realizing we should be demanding more to make increasing capacity at the ml even more attractive to ml managements.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that everyone wants to go to mainline. Not so.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

For the skitzo!