JetBlue new top of scale pay rate ??

[Old School 737]

What are the new top of scale Cp rates now that the lawsuit has been won!!!

 

[Blue Dude]

Nobody knows yet. And even if it were known, only those who were involved in the arbitration are going to benefit. Everyone else will be on the current published rates.

 

[Old School 737]

Nobody knows yet. And even if it were known, only those who were involved in the arbitration are going to benefit. Everyone else will be on the current published rates.

So a good portion of the capt. Will be on like a B scale? Isn't there some rough numbers to work with ?? Yet .. Just wondering

 

[Blue Dude]

Nope, nobody knows yet exactly how the decision applies to current pay rates, so it's hardly worth a guess. It'll be somewhere between $167 and $212, but that doesn't really narrow it down much. And yes, there will be something like a B-scale. The entire situation is ugly, and so very avoidable. Too late for that now though.

 

[Old School 737]

Is there back pay ? And interest ??

 

[Blue Dude]

Most likely.

 

[murano]

I just heard about this lawsuit. I used to be at B6 on the Airbus during the time frame specified. Can I still get in on this lawsuit or did I miss the boat?

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I just heard about this lawsuit. I used to be at B6 on the Airbus during the time frame specified. Can I still get in on this lawsuit or did I miss the boat?

Not a lawsuit, an arbitration.

Sorry, that boat has sailed.

 

[murano]

Well that sucks. How come no one told me!? Just out of curiosity, where can I find more info on this?

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Nobody knows yet. And even if it were known, only those who were involved in the arbitration are going to benefit. Everyone else will be on the current published rates.

I don't think we even know that. Couldn't the company just increase everyone to the new rate?

No point in speculating at all, frankly.

 

[pilot772]

I don't think we even know that. Couldn't the company just increase everyone to the new rate?

No point in speculating at all, frankly.

They Could......But considering they were asked point blank during the 3A process by the judge if they intended to give every pilot the same pay as the pilots in the 3A lawsuit should they lose? JetBlue answered definitely not. I'm told the judge's expression was priceless.

So you and I (I've only been here just short of 3 years) will be "B scalers" should be fun.

My suggestion for the next name the plane contest is "3A......Man we Blue that" :laugh:

 

[oldxfr8dog]

The company is in a tough spot.
Save a lot of money by having 2 payscales and pi$$ of a lot pilots on the eve of another union vote.
Or spend the money and look like white knights, giving the illusion that the DR works.
Probably wouldn't work, though. Lots of guys have had their eyes opened.

 

[Blue Dude]

I don't think we even know that. Couldn't the company just increase everyone to the new rate?

No point in speculating at all, frankly.

The company's own words and actions put this out of the realm of speculation. They could always change their minds, but that would require a level of forthrightness and leadership that hasn't been remotely evident throughout the process. I guess we can hope that they'll resume the pay review process (that they unilaterally decided to suspend) and bring everyone up to the same rate of pay in 2014. PSIA pay rates fall comfortably within the range of possible outcomes, so the company could be proactive on the issue and make everyone whole using the established process. I wouldn't hold my breath but it could happen. I just don't think they are nearly as concerned as they should be about keeping the pilots happy, not to mention keeping their own promises on pilot pay, benefits, job security and QOL. And to be fair, this pilot group hasn't given them much cause to worry so far. We will truly get what we deserve from the current employment arrangement, and that's not a particularly good thing.

 

[banger]

Should know more details in about 2 days. Check back then.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

It will never happen with this group, but I wish that for just 2 days, that every flight was a 3-engine taxi and that the brake was not released until cleared to push. They track everything: The fuel spike would dialate their pupils and the on-time would precipitate a Grand Mal seizure... Only then would they have a clue.

 

[$$$4nothin]

What the company decides to do with our pay/benefits package going forward from here will decide if a union comes on property. As much as any of us dislike it the company will decide if a union comes on property or not. If the company makes everyone whole and completely honors PSIA then a union stays off property. This would make all the bus drivers industry average and the 190 drivers well above average. If the company doesn't do this and creates a B scale then a union is on property in 2014. A hard fought CBA creates an industry leading contract that ends up making everyone whole anyway thanks to the current situation created by the upcoming retirements at legacy carriers. This also causes even more attrition at JB than they can come close to handling. So the way I see it, it's in there best interest to honor PSIA across every area. Unfortunately airline management has always been good at stepping over the dollar to pick up the dime. So I guess we will see a union on property in 2014.

 

[banger]

What the company decides to do with our pay/benefits package going forward from here will decide if a union comes on property. As much as any of us dislike it the company will decide if a union comes on property or not. If the company makes everyone whole and completely honors PSIA then a union stays off property. This would make all the bus drivers industry average and the 190 drivers well above average. If the company doesn't do this and creates a B scale then a union is on property in 2014. A hard fought CBA creates an industry leading contract that ends up making everyone whole anyway thanks to the current situation created by the upcoming retirements at legacy carriers. This also causes even more attrition at JB than they can come close to handling. So the way I see it, it's in there best interest to honor PSIA across every area. Unfortunately airline management has always been good at stepping over the dollar to pick up the dime. So I guess we will see a union on property in 2014.

I really agree with you 100%. My thoughts are that this management is really not that smart. Its like they 'fell" into this lucritive NY market and even though they mismanage this place every way they can, the NY market just keeps them afloat. Think how much a real management team might make! Really with a pilot group that works at a 25% or more cost advantage to every other airline you would think this place would be rolling in the dough. Another reason for lack of profit is the way the board members bleed the company with their "side" deals and secondary companies like the leasing company, food/snack venders and terminal leases. I would not feel good about those things if I were a stock holder. But hey... they elect the BOD so its on them.

 

[Blue Dude]

What the company decides to do with our pay/benefits package going forward from here will decide if a union comes on property.

The problem is that I've been hearing exactly that for at least 5 years. It's always future performance that will determine our decision, not past actions. There have been a number of "last straws" here, the most recent of which was the horrible medical plan change just six months ago. But our pilots tend to latch onto the ready-made excuse-du-jour and go back to sleep after a few weeks of outrage. The 3A excuse has already been prepared: some greedy pilots are exhausting the planned budget increase and we can't afford to pay everyone what we used to call PSIA (now peer-competitive). To remain competitive in an uncertain marketplace we can't afford to go ahead with the planned pay review, etc., etc. I could write this stuff in my sleep I've heard it so often. And most of the pilots will take it in uncritically like sheep and come back in on their day off to pick up an iPad or something.

I don't see any indication that this time is any different from the last. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here ...

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here ...

"Your winnings, sir..."

 

[coogebeachhotel]

"I beg of you, Monsieur, watch yourself.***** Be on guard.***** This place is full of vultures, vultures everywhere, everywhere."

 

[banger]

Tomorrow might be the "Big" day. We will see..........

 

[$$$4nothin]

The problem is that I've been hearing exactly that for at least 5 years. It's always future performance that will determine our decision, not past actions. There have been a number of "last straws" here, the most recent of which was the horrible medical plan change just six months ago. But our pilots tend to latch onto the ready-made excuse-du-jour and go back to sleep after a few weeks of outrage. The 3A excuse has already been prepared: some greedy pilots are exhausting the planned budget increase and we can't afford to pay everyone what we used to call PSIA (now peer-competitive). To remain competitive in an uncertain marketplace we can't afford to go ahead with the planned pay review, etc., etc. I could write this stuff in my sleep I've heard it so often. And most of the pilots will take it in uncritically like sheep and come back in on their day off to pick up an iPad or something.

I don't see any indication that this time is any different from the last. I hope I'm wrong.

Well luckily we have timing on our side this drive. The company will not be able to say vote down a union and we will give you this. Luckily this time the company will have to throw all its cards on the table moments before the official drive starts and a vote happens. Time for the company to put up or shut up. Again if they want to keep ALPA off property they will make every pilot equal to the 3A guys and the 190 drivers will be setting the bar for 190 drivers at every other company.

Then hopefully we vote ALPA in anyway because guys are smart enough to see they need the protections only a CBA and ALPA can provide us

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Well luckily we have timing on our side this drive. The company will not be able to say vote down a union and we will give you this. Luckily this time the company will have to throw all its cards on the table moments before the official drive starts and a vote happens. Time for the company to put up or shut up. Again if they want to keep ALPA off property they will make every pilot equal to the 3A guys and the 190 drivers will be setting the bar for 190 drivers at every other company.

Then hopefully we vote ALPA in anyway because guys are smart enough to see they need the protections only a CBA and ALPA can provide us

The elephant in the room is merger protection. No matter how much lipstick is put on the language, it will always be insufficient from pilot career perspective . It is not in the BOD interest to have iron-clad merger agreement language. The BOD represents shareholders. Period. Barger works for the BOD. Don't forget this. The interest of pilots is at odds with that of shareholders. The upside to the JBLU stock is a merger. And lets be honest the stock price has been stuck in suspended animation for 6 years. You don't think the BOD is feeling the heat from institutional shareholders? Extensive merger protection language makes a transaction more difficult. That is business. Touchy-feely only goes so far the rest is cold hearted economics,

 

[$$$4nothin]

Agree completely

 

[Blue Dude]

You see it. I see it. But I have seen too often the wretched ability of this pilot group to ignore the obvious and just not be bothered to pay attention. As long as the checks clear, everything's good, right? They come in to pick up company required equipment on their time off without pay. They are so afraid of offending they can't even say no to pulling on blue gloves in front of the passengers. If we can't get them to act in their own best interest now, in the moment, how do you expect them to act on year three of a concentrated campaign when the real gloves are off and the "free" goodies are gone? Answer: we'll never find out because they'll cave the first month their Flica alerts dry up. I have no faith in this pilot group.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Many of the group are emotionally invested, completely. This job is their identity. It is dangerous to get emotionally attached to investments.

We do a job. And we do it very well.

It is our responsibility to look out for ourselves, our fellow pilots, and our families.

This gig will not last forever. Statistics do not lie.

 

[AKAAB]

As I see it, they cannot simply bring everyone up to the new 3A scale. The 3A arbitration will set pay scales for the claimants, retroactive to 2007. In a nutshell, the arbitrator is simply correcting the payscale to what it should have been for the claimants had JetBlue complied with the 3A clause as they wrote it. Now, once the payscales are "corrected", any change in the current payscale that is given to newhires, i.e. making them "whole", if not also given to the rest of the pilot group, will trigger another 3A claim.

The contract JetBlue wrote is very clear. Any raise given to new hires gets applied to all payrates and all longevities. Thus, if they give the new hires a raise to bring them up to 3A, they will have to give the same percentage to everyone.

Now, they can try to get around this by making everyone whole, while keeping the first-year pay the same, but they will find it nearly impossible to fill any vacancies with a B-scale for newhires in the upcoming hiring boom. Eventually, they will have to raise pay for newhires...and give the same raise to everyone else per the 3A clause in the employment agreement.

JetBlue has painted themselves in a corner without a paddle...

 

[ASA_Aviator]

As I see it, they cannot simply bring everyone up to the new 3A scale. The 3A arbitration will set pay scales for the claimants, retroactive to 2007. In a nutshell, the arbitrator is simply correcting the payscale to what it should have been for the claimants had JetBlue complied with the 3A clause as they wrote it. Now, once the payscales are "corrected", any change in the current payscale that is given to newhires, i.e. making them "whole", if not also given to the rest of the pilot group, will trigger another 3A claim.

The contract JetBlue wrote is very clear. Any raise given to new hires gets applied to all payrates and all longevities. Thus, if they give the new hires a raise to bring them up to 3A, they will have to give the same percentage to everyone.

Now, they can try to get around this by making everyone whole, while keeping the first-year pay the same, but they will find it nearly impossible to fill any vacancies with a B-scale for newhires in the upcoming hiring boom. Eventually, they will have to raise pay for newhires...and give the same raise to everyone else per the 3A clause in the employment agreement.

JetBlue has painted themselves in a corner without a paddle...

I think that IF they came to the pilots and said, "in the interest of good will, we are going to bring everyone up to the 3A rate," several things would happen:

1. The union vote would face another serious challenge.

2. The pilots would embrace that with open arms, and we would all be on the same page.

We know that isn't going to happen, but I do not think that bringing everyone to parity = another 3A. That's just silly. What, you're going punish the company for trying to make everyone whole? The arbitrator would laugh you out of the building.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Will the pilots that are eligible for 3A but did not sign to the arbitration be awarded the back pay and interest as well (assuming this is the direction of the arbitrator penalty decision )?

Even if management wanted to raise the rates to the 3A standard how will the BOD/shareholders react to this? My guess is that when the BOD sees the final bill and discusses with the major shareholders there will be some hot heads.

If the 3A eligible pilots, but non-participant, are not brought up to par with those awarded 3A, will those pilots file a new arbitration claim? So will we have a round 2 of 3A?

What a sticky situation.