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LXJET 70+ seat rates out

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ASApuppy said:
As for the Smartpref, I still don't completely understand why you guys are onboard with that. It's like full list unstacking on our side. Your exchange and trip swap after a schedule is far better than what we have. Lets keep that. But seriously, start the bid with our PBS. I also want the whole bid timeline moved up. We are still working with the timelines setup for paper bidding. Why can ALPA run 2 prelim bids in 24 hours but its takes the company a week to run 1. When the flight attendants were playing with Flightline PBS when we first got it, they had "Live Bidding". So that feature is already programmed and just needs to be switched on. I would like to know what the cost difference is for the company between the 2 systems. Why are we operating with any system not owned by us? Sked Plus does not have monthly fees. Back on the old contract remember how all of us were paying $8 month to Flightline for access to do bid at home and do swaps. 1500 pilots plus 1000 F/A's makes for $20,000 per month to Flightline. What on Earth could their expenses be for that service? I bet they are charging ASA similar fees for Prefbid. I can't help but think that we can bring this in house for much less.
Click to expand...
Yup I agree
 
ASApuppy said:
None of you guys can see the forest through the trees. Some of you think that a rate of $2 an hour means downward pressure on us. Nope. With this rate, LXJT still receive more compensation than higher paid LASA. Its called the B-fund. If you want to give me that deal I'll sign in a New York minute. Give up $2 per hour in exchange for 6% into an account I take with me if I leave.

As for the Smartpref, I still don't completely understand why you guys are onboard with that. It's like full list unstacking on our side. Your exchange and trip swap after a schedule is far better than what we have. Lets keep that. But seriously, start the bid with our PBS. I also want the whole bid timeline moved up. We are still working with the timelines setup for paper bidding. Why can ALPA run 2 prelim bids in 24 hours but its takes the company a week to run 1. When the flight attendants were playing with Flightline PBS when we first got it, they had "Live Bidding". So that feature is already programmed and just needs to be switched on. I would like to know what the cost difference is for the company between the 2 systems. Why are we operating with any system not owned by us? Sked Plus does not have monthly fees. Back on the old contract remember how all of us were paying $8 month to Flightline for access to do bid at home and do swaps. 1500 pilots plus 1000 F/A's makes for $20,000 per month to Flightline. What on Earth could their expenses be for that service? I bet they are charging ASA similar fees for Prefbid. I can't help but think that we can bring this in house for much less.
Click to expand...

+1
Well done Pup
 
I agree with Smartpref not being a smart choice. I'm very happy with what we have at ASA. That's not entirely the issue though. We have 2 MEC's who are more at odds with each other than the company. It's really sad to see us fighting amongst ourselves vs. working collectively to find real solutions. The whipsaw has begun and we need a JCBA. I'm not advocating taking whatever they ram down our throats. We just need other options than "I hate your PBS and it's my system or nothing". This is not working.
 
As a line pilot I would like to see a side by side comparison of both systems using real pairings. I have seen how SmartPref works for the conversion lines, and although I am a "no PBS" guy, it looked pretty slick and I could see it working with the right rules in place. As far as Flightline, I can only go on what XJT scheduling committee has put out. I would love for the ASA scheduling committee to demo Flightline for us.
 
Whydoitry said:
As a line pilot I would like to see a side by side comparison of both systems using real pairings. I have seen how SmartPref works for the conversion lines, and although I am a "no PBS" guy, it looked pretty slick and I could see it working with the right rules in place. As far as Flightline, I can only go on what XJT scheduling committee has put out. I would love for the ASA scheduling committee to demo Flightline for us.
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What is it with you guys and this hang up on 'real time'. This is complete fools gold. Everyone knows that this doesn't work unless you have 100% participation, which you never do until the bids are just about closed.

Please please please. Keep us separate from Xjt. We want nothing to do with smartpref. Why don't you think no other airline has selected this pos. go ahead...take your smartpref. Just leave us out of it. We are happy with flightline.
 
SmartPref is the system the TWA pilots bid with call Slick, minus the interface. Old algorithm that has been in storage until they attached the pretty interface.
 
Enuff, I could be wrong, but I don't think he was referring to real time bidding. That's how I read it the first time till I went back and re-read it.

But, Please XJET guys don't get hung up on the real time bidding. It looks nice and flashy but it will not work.

As I've said MANY times, I'm not a huge supporter of flight line PBS. I'd rather have your line bidding. That's not gonna happen. PBS IS GONNA HAPPEN.

But please consider the expertise of people who have actually used it for years using a tried and true product. This smartpref system has been rejected time after time. It is basically a couple of guys in a room with a couple of servers tweaking 20 year old software with a modern GUI. They are needing a large cash infusion to modernize and upgrade their product for us/you. They are waiting for this infusion of cash before they hire a staff to run the operation.

Is that what you really want? 10-12 brand new software engineers on an untried antiquated system. Our MEC went to their headquarters and asked very specific questions and were met with blank stares. Nobody could answer how the award logic actually worked.

I didn't like the line in the sand memo our MEC put out. I thought it was a HUGE mistake. But your MEC is making one pushing this POS software. We simply cannot figure out why they want it so bad. It seems suspicious. Are they getting a back door raise to push it???Its Like they are actually picking such a horrible system so that it would stall our negotiations. Just ask questions.....LOTS of questions. The simple fact that our company wants it should scare you A LOT!!!

Like the surejet name change.....it was SOOOOO BAD we thought it was surely a conspiracy cause NOBODY could really think THAT was a good idea.

Flame away
 
Well said!
Totally incomprehensible that XJet side is proposing SmartPerf. A globalized system is the last thing we want. You're correct when you state there's something fishy going on, and questions do need to be asked.
If the company wants this so bad, that's a big red flag right there.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 
Tarzan said:
SmartPref is the system the TWA pilots bid with call Slick, minus the interface. Old algorithm that has been in storage until they attached the pretty interface.
Click to expand...

I thought they used Ad-opt software?

http://business.highbeam.com/26/article-1G1-21153965/ad-opting-pref-bidding

Doesn't matter, talk to a TWA guy about the PBS they used, hard to find one that DIDN'T like it, the reason?

IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE WORK RULES!!!!!!!!!

The pilots had 100% control over the sort/award.
 
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I would support a quiji board bidding system if the pilots had 100% control over the awards.

That i guarantee you the company would NEVER........EVER .......do

Ever.
 
Whydoitry said:
As a line pilot I would like to see a side by side comparison of both systems using real pairings. I have seen how SmartPref works for the conversion lines, and although I am a "no PBS" guy, it looked pretty slick and I could see it working with the right rules in place. As far as Flightline, I can only go on what XJT scheduling committee has put out. I would love for the ASA scheduling committee to demo Flightline for us.
Click to expand...

They, XE and The Company, won't allow it. Why is that?
 
COOPERVANE said:
Enuff, I could be wrong, but I don't think he was referring to real time bidding. That's how I read it the first time till I went back and re-read it.

But, Please XJET guys don't get hung up on the real time bidding. It looks nice and flashy but it will not work.

As I've said MANY times, I'm not a huge supporter of flight line PBS. I'd rather have your line bidding. That's not gonna happen. PBS IS GONNA HAPPEN.

But please consider the expertise of people who have actually used it for years using a tried and true product. This smartpref system has been rejected time after time. It is basically a couple of guys in a room with a couple of servers tweaking 20 year old software with a modern GUI. They are needing a large cash infusion to modernize and upgrade their product for us/you. They are waiting for this infusion of cash before they hire a staff to run the operation.

Is that what you really want? 10-12 brand new software engineers on an untried antiquated system. Our MEC went to their headquarters and asked very specific questions and were met with blank stares. Nobody could answer how the award logic actually worked.

I didn't like the line in the sand memo our MEC put out. I thought it was a HUGE mistake. But your MEC is making one pushing this POS software. We simply cannot figure out why they want it so bad. It seems suspicious. Are they getting a back door raise to push it???Its Like they are actually picking such a horrible system so that it would stall our negotiations. Just ask questions.....LOTS of questions. The simple fact that our company wants it should scare you A LOT!!!

Like the surejet name change.....it was SOOOOO BAD we thought it was surely a conspiracy cause NOBODY could really think THAT was a good idea.

Flame away
Click to expand...

Its been explained before but the "real time" bidding is not meant to show you what your final award will be. The best thing about that is that it shows you whether your award strategy will work at your seniority. That's it. You don't need to wait until the final award to see if you get something close to the type of line you wanted or something completely different because you screwed up how you bid.

You scheduling guys went to their headquarters and were asking questions on how to make smartpref into flight line. And they didn't like the answers. They were asking lawyer type questions rather than open minded inquisitive type questions. This is precisely why they got the eff off letter from crewing solutions. They were NOT there to research ANYTHING. They had already made up their mind that it was flight line or NOTHING else. And it played out that way.

Your MEC played their hand with their ultimatum. They feel that was the best thing they could do for you guys. We are all fine with that now. But its only you guys who are upset about it. The only reason we are where we are now is because of their ultimatum and NOTHING else. All other differences could have been worked out up until one party draws their line in the sand.

The XJT MEC wants smartpref because they feel that after the scheduling committee's research, that is the best system to deliver at least the same QOL that our current line bidding does. They have even said that they can make flight line work but it would take some better work rules. Considering that the company wants to get rid of the best work rule, vacation low, getting better ones would cost too much in other QOL or compensation areas or would be unattainable in negotiations. Smartpref doesn't need as many work rules as it stands now. Mainly it would need vacation and training day credit work rules and other minor tweaks. Also, there is a HUGE difference in culture between our MECs when it comes to seniority. Our MEC is willing to spread the wealth in some areas when it comes to QOL of pilots in the entire seniority spectrum (our reserve work rules and vacation bidding are good examples of this). They are not so hung up on globalization changing pilot's schedules for those in the restricted group if overall the new contract is better for the whole group. I don't get that feeling from your MEC. The company wants it because smartpref actually solves the solution the first time. There is no need to run and rerun multiple upon multiple solutions. There is no need to have three or four guys on the company dole to do all this. There is no consternation about unstacking, changing sort bias, coin flips, etc. It just works...the first time.

SoberIrishman said:
Well said!
Totally incomprehensible that XJet side is proposing SmartPerf. A globalized system is the last thing we want. You're correct when you state there's something fishy going on, and questions do need to be asked.
If the company wants this so bad, that's a big red flag right there.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

See above.

Texx said:
They, XE and The Company, won't allow it. Why is that?
Click to expand...

The ASA MEC turned down the only idea which would have picked the pbs vendor in an objective way. All the other ideas had, at the very least, the possible appearance of an unfair advantage. But when the company proposed that the two MEC's use a third party neutral arbitrator to pick the pbs vendor, the ASA MEC refused and then drew their line in the sand with their ultimatum.

Why is that? Because the ASA MEC had already made up their mind that they were not going to agree to anything that had the possibility of having smartpref as the final outcome. From the very beginning, they have not compromised one micron. Well, now we are where we are because of that. No one to blame for that than them.
 
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Nevets, I've always thought of you as an objective level headed guy, but come on!!

They asked the vendor "lawyer like" questions?? Are you kidding me? Oh god I hope they asked "lawyer like" questions. The vendor was not prepared to answer their questions and you admit the vendor sends an eff off letter?? This is who you want to hire? A vendor who can't answer questions about his product and then sends an "eff off" letter to a potential client? Based on that one fact I wouldn't do business with them.

I spoke to the rep who ACTUALLY visited the company to look at smartpref. He said the owner blew them off AFTER they flew to his HQ to see the software. I really don't like our MEC but this rep is the best there is and I trust HIM. It is a horrible product pushed for an unknown agenda.

You seem to not want flight line....a PROVEN PBS system, SIMPLY because we (as a group) like it. That's a pretty poor reason to toss it out given we haven't even worked out the work rules yet for the contract.

And then to say it is is ASA's fault you agreed to arbitration? Talk about a victim mentality.

I'm done arguing and I'm past caring. The only option is to abandon ship. Have fun with this turd of a contract you are pushing towards.

You deserve exactly what you are going to get

I'm done.
 
COOPERVANE said:
Nevets, I've always thought of you as an objective level headed guy, but come on!!

They asked the vendor "lawyer like" questions?? Are you kidding me? Oh god I hope they asked "lawyer like" questions. The vendor was not prepared to answer their questions and you admit the vendor sends an eff off letter?? This is who you want to hire? A vendor who can't answer questions about his product and then sends an "eff off" letter to a potential client? Based on that one fact I wouldn't do business with them.

I spoke to the rep who ACTUALLY visited the company to look at smartpref. He said the owner blew them off AFTER they flew to his HQ to see the software. I really don't like our MEC but this rep is the best there is and I trust HIM. It is a horrible product pushed for an unknown agenda.

You seem to not want flight line....a PROVEN PBS system, SIMPLY because we (as a group) like it. That's a pretty poor reason to toss it out given we haven't even worked out the work rules yet for the contract.

And then to say it is is ASA's fault you agreed to arbitration? Talk about a victim mentality.

I'm done arguing and I'm past caring. The only option is to abandon ship. Have fun with this turd of a contract you are pushing towards.

You deserve exactly what you are going to get

I'm done.
Click to expand...

The XJT scheduling committee member I talked to said that the ASA guys were hostile. Maybe I should have said that they treated the crewing solutions guys as a lawyer questioning a hostile witness. The impression was that they were only interested in smartpref if it worked just like flight line, that they didn't have an open mind. The fact that a business would send off an eff letter to a potential customer says a lot.

As for me, I don't care one bit if you like flight line. I have no problem with that whatsoever. In fact, from what I know, its light years ahead of your old line bidding and work rules. I just go off of what our scheduling guys put out as far as which PBS vendor is best for the XJT pilots as far as trying to maintain the XJT pilots' QOL. They actually said that flight line could work but it has major caveats that would cost too much or may be unattainable in negotiations. Issues that smartpref does not have.

As for agreeing to arbitration, there was no agreement. It was forced upon us my management because of the ASA MEC's ultimatum. Personally, I'm ok with the award. I'm ok if the merger never happens. I wish the rates would have been better but when looking at our 401k matching, our B fund contribution, our 25% premium cap on health benefits, and the totality of our contract as a whole, the compensation falls within industry average. Any reasonable person would expect that from any arbitration.
 
Why would anyone at XJT know what was or was not said in a meeting between ASA and any vendors? This was all done long before ASA bought XJT.
 

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