FlexJet offering voluntary seperations

[Gators]

That was for effect. Mr Propilot was/is way out of line. Those that fly with me get an equal opportunity to experience everything required for the safe and efficient operation of the airplane. I split legs 50/50, right down to them deciding on the fuel load for their leg. I'm probably one of the few that still switches seats on position legs, if they so choose. (most don't anymore). I clean the cabin, help stock the plane and install/remove the gear pins and do everything I can to help my fellow crewmember. I've seen first hand what not getting a junior, less experienced aviator involved in the decision process can do. They are'nt just Co-pilot's or First Officers, they're Captains waiting for a seat to open up. Just like I was for almost 20 years.

Dude, I wish more Captains had this kind of attitude and outlook! Good for you...

 

[John MClain]

Most of the "new guys/gals" at Flex have been there over 5.5 years. Before I was furloughed we swapped every leg anyway did this change in the last 4 years?

Any recall chatter? I know the recent re-furloughees gotta be pissed.

Policy wise if it's a 135 leg, the PIC must be in the left seat. FO's can fly live 135 legs but not from the left seat. 91, 91k position legs it's up to the descretion of the PIC who sits where. Most guy's don't swap just because they've been here so long it's not that big a deal for them to fly from the left seat, (swap headsets and iPads) some do if they've got a checkride coming up and they take it from the left seat.

No recall chatter and yes from what I hear many are extremely pissed and rightfully so. Don't think any would come back, unless they're on food stamps.

 

[DUATS]

Have a wonderul and fulfilling career champ.

No way that is going to happen. I've seen this type many times, as I am sure most of us have. There is nothing that will make him happy. If every pilot senior to him retired and the company doubled his pay, he would still find something that makes him unhappy. It's too bad for him. He's missing a good life.

 

[CaptSeth]

If I am not mistaken, there is no mandatory retirement age under Part 91K or Part 135, but for International Operations you're subject to ICAO rules which specify 65. So the playing field has not changed for the fractionals - the rules now are what they have been.

The status quo has not been disrupted, unlike the Part 121 carriers, where everyone under the age of 55 essentially suffered a five year period of career stagnation, or worse - disruption - as a result of the rule change. What's worse, it came about in the worst recessionary period in the history of our nation, rivaling the Great Depression in terms of destruction of wealth. I'd love to be able to grab some 14 year guy's seat at a nice fractional and have an easy life - but I'm not entitled to, just as much as I'd like to be a 777 Captain at a legacy, but the system won't support that fantasy now, or ever, as the seniority system in the U.S. was broken the day it was instituted by the uneducated and misguided "founders" of ALPA.

So the guy that's in his 60's and is flying a nice CL601, well, he's entitled to be there. And by the way, I was vehemently against raising the mandatory retirement age, but it just doesn't apply here.

 

[gutshotdraw]

If I am not mistaken, there is no mandatory retirement age under Part 91K or Part 135, but for International Operations you're subject to ICAO rules which specify 65. So the playing field has not changed for the fractionals - the rules now are what they have been.

There is no mandatory retirement age for 91, 91K, or 135....but there SHOULD be. FAA missed a chance to say "okay, raise 121 to 65 but that will also be the cut-off for ALL 91K and 135 flying." And the ICAO limit doesn't mean much. We send guys all over the planet that are WELL over 65. Just have to make sure the other guy ISN'T.

The status quo has not been disrupted, unlike the Part 121 carriers, where everyone under the age of 55 essentially suffered a five year period of career stagnation, or worse - disruption - as a result of the rule change. What's worse, it came about in the worst recessionary period in the history of our nation, rivaling the Great Depression in terms of destruction of wealth. I'd love to be able to grab some 14 year guy's seat at a nice fractional and have an easy life - but I'm not entitled to, just as much as I'd like to be a 777 Captain at a legacy, but the system won't support that fantasy now, or ever, as the seniority system in the U.S. was broken the day it was instituted by the uneducated and misguided "founders" of ALPA.

If you think fractional flying is "the easy life" you clearly have never done it. An airline pilot walks around the jet, looks at the paperwork, boards the jet, turns left, closes the door and flies. We pre-flight the jet, cater it, supervise servicing, load the bags and people into it, then fly the jet (frequently into an airport we've never even heard of with dubious weather reporting and marginal runway lengths), fly three or four more legs of the same ilk, clean it, lock it up, and then try and find a ride to a no-tel, mo-tel in east god-knows-where so we can do it all again ten hours later. And all for about 60% of what a garden variety legacy airline pilot gets paid.

So the guy that's in his 60's and is flying a nice CL601, well, he's entitled to be there. And by the way, I was vehemently against raising the mandatory retirement age, but it just doesn't apply here.

Maybe the 60+ guy is entitled to be there. But when they reach their sell-by date and can't cut it anymore (and we have WAY too many of those), they owe it to their passengers, co-workers, and themselves to pull the plug. There is "old" 60 and "young" 60. Or 70. Or even 50. But most lack the intellectual honesty to realize they have become the "old" variety and RETIRE. Unfortunately, you HAVE to legislate to the weakest link. So yes, it ABSOLUTELY SHOULD apply here.

 

[gunfyter]

Maybe the 60+ guy is entitled to be there. But when they reach their sell-by date and can't cut it anymore (and we have WAY too many of those), they owe it to their passengers, co-workers, and themselves to pull the plug. There is "old" 60 and "young" 60. Or 70. Or even 50. But most lack the intellectual honesty to realize they have become the "old" variety and RETIRE. Unfortunately, you HAVE to legislate to the weakest link. So yes, it ABSOLUTELY SHOULD apply here.

That's not very Libertarian of you ...

 

[gutshotdraw]

That's not very Libertarian of you ...

I would be all for the libertarian way of doing it: the employer gets to fire an old fart they KNOW can't cut it anymore WITHOUT threat of an age-discrimination lawsuit. But the Gub'mint won't let an employer do that, will they?

 

[G4dude]

I would be all for the libertarian way of doing it: the employer gets to fire an old fart they KNOW can't cut it anymore WITHOUT threat of an age-discrimination lawsuit. But the Gub'mint won't let an employer do that, will they?

The same gov'ment that REQUIRES age 65 retirement at the airlines, as pointed out by somebody else already. Hilarious!

 

[doh]

The same gov'ment that REQUIRES age 65 retirement at the airlines, as pointed out by somebody else already. Hilarious!

You're mixing arguments. That is not what he said or meant.

 

[Helmsalee]

This old guy vs. younger guys argument has been going on forever. What no one, any age, has addressed is that there are weak pilots at all ages. I agree that as we age the percentage increases. If the system were designed to weed these out at any age, we would not need to worry about age limits. Don't see that happening any time soon, so here we are.
Helm

 

[gutshotdraw]

You're mixing arguments. That is not what he said or meant.

That's true but I get G4's point.

Gub'mint: " Hey, Crazy Clown charter company! You can't fire a pilot because he's old! That's discrimination! Only WE can make a company fire someody because they're old! Remember, we're the Gub'mint. We can be hypocrites!"

Helm, I've said all along there are "young" and "old" versions of any age and everything that implies as to declining pilot skill. I wish the "weeding process" were more robust. But since it isn't, if the Gub'mint insists on an age limit, impose it on ALL compensated flying or lift the limit altogether. Either it's safe to fly past 65 or it isn't. Pick one.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Hey helmsalee - off topic here, but if you have to list all 243 aircraft you've flown in your profile, can you put a space after the commas? The types take up almost the whole page because the meg board thinks its all one word. Makes it hard to read your posts, as there's only enough room for 1-2 words per line. Thanks.

 

[gret]

Over the past couple of days I’ve been pondering some comments posted on FlightInfo about forcing senior guys into retirement.

I may be one of the exceptions, but almost everywhere I worked we all pulled together as a team, respected our co-workers (may not invite them over for Thanksgiving), and took a lot a pride in our work and our company. We viewed ourselves as the company and the last thing we would do is wish ill will on anybody…mgmt, shareholders, or co-workers.

When I started out, we looked at older workers as our mentors/teachers and I would say they enjoyed the role and were the first ones to step in and help someone that would be struggling. Today, while not retirement age, I enjoy helping younger employees succeed not only at work, but in life. If I sense a younger worker wants help...he/she gets it…if he/she believes that they walk on water and have little in the way of manners, I try once and if it goes unappreciated, they simply fail to exist. Usually, they are out the door and after two or three times getting fired, they learn and adjust.

Not sure of the attitudes today…tough economy, fewer pilots who came thru the military, society just being less civil, or whatever…but being a bit cocky is OK, being a d*ck is never acceptable.

The more senior guys on flightinfo.com handle the banter pretty well from what I read. The younger guys shooting the more venomous attacks should probably take a moment and reconsider their position in life and career choice. If you’re really as good as you think, then why are you wasting your time as a pilot…too many people chasing too few jobs, money isn’t that good, hours are terrible, and most only get their best erections on take-off.

No job is guaranteed and nobody has to give up their position solely for you to feel good. If after reflecting you really mean what you say, you’re probably a bore and your friends and family most likely agree because you can’t turn off being a d*ck once you leave work.

Finally, the smug dip stick who thinks he has financial and life planning down, bite my butt. Everyone lives their life the way they see fit and based on the description of your situation, I would commit seppuku simply because of the boredom.

 

[Sparse]

What he said.

 

[jetlag7]

Best damn post this year! :thumbup: