Live Smartpref overated?

[FightingIrish]

Here is a complaint from a LXJT pilot on the "crackpipe". Sounds like that live bidding is all it's cracked up to be.

"So I go thru all the online material, met with someone from the union that helped me set up a bid. Sit here for over an hour just viewing the changes. And still get sh*t. One minute before the bid closes, my bid looks good then it closes and reduces me to 12 days off and some crap trips. What the F, how can it look good one minute before it closes and then turns to crap. I seriously doubt everyone made changes one minute before it closed. Crew planning has given better schedules, and I wasn't bidding at the complete bottom. If your not bidding in the top five to ten, its f-ing pointless to put a bid in. What a waste of time

PBS for initial window never" ​

 

[hou757]

Interesting you did not post the other responses to this..

 

[Nevets]

There was one person that said his final line was different from the last one he saw on smartpref before it closed. Fact is that, just like your prelim, the line you see is not guaranteed. Most of the other people got what they wanted. There will ALWAYS be people that don't get what they want. That's called juniority. It happens in ALL bidding systems, even line bidding. The biggest aspect of this is being able to see what different strategies will give you at your seniority, it will let you know if you accidentally bid wrong, it will let you know what you can hold at your seniority. If that doesn't sound like information you would like to have, guess what? THEN DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO IT!

 

[ASADriver]

This is why we like having multiple bid sheets. This live bidding thing isn't a guarantee. It also sounds like globalization got this guy. No thanks.

 

[Nevets]

This is why we like having multiple bid sheets. This live bidding thing isn't a guarantee. It also sounds like globalization got this guy. No thanks.

Honest question here: how do you know that when the original bid is solved that your line didn't have 15 days off with the types of trips you wanted but then the final bid, after it being solved over and over again by the union, company, sort bias, threshold manipulation, unstacking, coin toss, etc, it only has 12 days off with only half the trips being the kind you wanted? Just as an example.

 

[ASADriver]

Honest question here: how do you know that when the original bid is solved that your line didn't have 15 days off with the types of trips you wanted but then the final bid, after it being solved over and over again by the union, company, sort bias, threshold manipulation, unstacking, coin toss, etc, it only has 12 days off with only half the trips being the kind you wanted? Just as an example.

There is a very detailed audit report that is several pages long explaining why you did and didn't get what you bid.

 

[Nevets]

There is a very detailed audit report that is several pages long explaining why you did and didn't get what you bid.

But does it just explain the last run that the company and union agreed to go with or all of them they went through? That doesn't really answer my question anyway.

What I want to know is how do you know if the original solution was better for you, or the second, or seventeenth one was better but the last one they decided to with wasn't as good?

 

[ASADriver]

But does it just explain the last run that the company and union agreed to go with or all of them they went through? That doesn't really answer my question anyway.

What I want to know is how do you know if the original solution was better for you, or the second, or seventeenth one was better but the last one they decided to with wasn't as good?

Because they can't raise the bottom of the window that is published with the bid packet. They can only lower it further if they want. Therefor, if you want max days off, they can't change anything that would cause you to end up with fewer days off.

Sounds like you guys really don't understand our system after all.

 

[Nevets]

Because they can't raise the bottom of the window that is published with the bid packet. They can only lower it further if they want. Therefor, if you want max days off, they can't change anything that would cause you to end up with fewer days off.

Sounds like you guys really don't understand our system after all.

Which is PRECISELY why I used the phrase, "as an example." So let me give you another example then. What if you wanted to maximize your pay by working as many days as possible or maybe you just want to build that magical 1000 TPIC ASAP, so you are saying that they can lower the bottom of the window for EVERYONE (socializing or in other words, not seniority based) and now you are flying less hours than you would've been?

Regardless, it STILL doesn't answer my question. How do you know if your had a better or worse schedule in one of the previous solutions the company or union threw out?

Don't get caught up in the example now, ok. Its just to illustrate the question.

 

[ace6453]

which is precisely why i used the phrase, "as an example." so let me give you another example then. What if you wanted to maximize your pay by working as many days as possible or maybe you just want to build that magical 1000 tpic asap, so you are saying that they can lower the bottom of the window for everyone (socializing or in other words, not seniority based) and now you are flying less hours than you would've been?

this is not true. The company may lower the bottom of the window, but the top does not move. Nothing is being socialized by this.

regardless, it still doesn't answer my question. How do you know if your had a better or worse schedule in one of the previous solutions the company or union threw out?

you never know how many bid runs they did for your position. The audit trail you receive is only for the final run.

don't get caught up in the example now, ok. Its just to illustrate the question.

123456789

 

[Nevets]

this is not true. The company may lower the bottom of the window, but the top does not move. Nothing is being socialized by this.


you never know how many bid runs they did for your position. The audit trail you receive is only for the final run.

Ok, thanks for the info. The audit trail is just for the last run and there is no way to know if you actually had something better with one of the other runs. So how is that any different from live bidding changing at the last minute other than yours happens manually after the bid is closed.

For the lowering of the window, when they do that, doesn't it do it for everyone? In other words, wouldn't it lower the average line value for everyone? If so, how is that not socializing? Or are we just arguing semantics and the definition of the word socializing?

 

[ASADriver]

Ok, thanks for the info. The audit trail is just for the last run and there is no way to know if you actually had something better with one of the other runs. So how is that any different from live bidding changing at the last minute other than yours happens manually after the bid is closed.

First off, that's why you have multiple bid sheets. Neither system lets you know before the close what you will hold for sure. Wouldn't you like to have a couple of back up strategies if you don't get what you think you will hold? Why are you guys so opposed to having back up bid sheets?

Second, the only that can happen is they can lower the window which means that many pilots will get MORE time off. Those who want to fly more still can.

I really don't think you understand our system like you claim.

Here is a question for you. It has now been established that your live bidding doesn't guarantee you what you have right before the bid closes, much less 10 hours before the bid closes if you aren't going to have access to a computer the last day. How do I do a backup strategy with SmartPref?

For the lowering of the window, when they do that, doesn't it do it for everyone? In other words, wouldn't it lower the average line value for everyone? If so, how is that not socializing? Or are we just arguing semantics and the definition of the word socializing?

It only lowers the line values for those who WANT LOWER values. That actually leaves MORE flying for those who want it and it doesn't lower their line values. You really have no idea how our system works, yet you know you don't want it.

 

[Nevets]

First off, that's why you have multiple bid sheets. Neither system lets you know before the close what you will hold for sure. Wouldn't you like to have a couple of back up strategies if you don't get what you think you will hold? Why are you guys so opposed to having back up bid sheets?

Second, the only that can happen is they can lower the window which means that many pilots will get MORE time off. Those who want to fly more still can.

I really don't think you understand our system like you claim.

Here is a question for you. It has now been established that your live bidding doesn't guarantee you what you have right before the bid closes, much less 10 hours before the bid closes if you aren't going to have access to a computer the last day. How do I do a backup strategy with SmartPref?



It only lowers the line values for those who WANT LOWER values. That actually leaves MORE flying for those who want it and it doesn't lower their line values. You really have no idea how our system works, yet you know you don't want it.

You guys keep getting stuck on my examples, probably on purpose to avoid the question at hand. Admittedly, my examples don't fit what the point I'm trying to make. So let me try one more time, how do you know if a certain solution wasn't better for you than the final one? How do you know that in order to make the overall solution work, they had to take some trips from you and swap it with other people and vice versa? Does it use neutral trips (trips you didn't avoid but didn't specifically bid for)? Because that's how globalization works for the restricted group in smartpref. But instead of some manually doing it using their subjectivity of what THEY think is best, it does it automatically with transparent predetermined work rules that are not lowered, or unstacked, or left to a coin toss.

I will concede that I am trying to understand your system better. So let me ask this also, what will it do if all people want to maximize block time? Or what if everyone bids the same exact way?

Also, there isn't an opposition to multiple bid sheets. I've been saying that smartpref just works differently. Just because it solves the problem without bid sheets does not mean its worse or better. It's just different.

Lastly, nothing has been established. I've said many times here and I don't know why you guys chose to ignore it. The biggest aspect of live bidding is NOT to see what your final line will be. I don't know how many times I have to explain that.

 

[centralpilot]

Also, there isn't an opposition to multiple bid sheets. I've been saying that smartpref just works differently. Just because it solves the problem without bid sheets does not mean its worse or better. It's just different.

That's fine, but what is SmartPref's different solution providing a backup plan in case your bid is adversely affected at the last minute? You have stated that it isn't necessary in a live bidding environment, but it appears that isn't necessarily true. I know you can have multiple bids, but only one is the designated "bid of record". There does not appear to be a way to tell the system to switch strategies if your first strategy fails in the final bid run. I dare say the lack of such a safety net is worse.

 

[FightingIrish]

Here is a follow up post by the original poster on the crackpipe. Apparantly he would have liked to have had an ability to try a different strategy and apparantly he is being attacked for bringing this up in public. After all we can't let those evil ASA pilots see how bad our PBS system is working.

Follow up quote from OP:

"Why when anyone just wants to blow off some frustration, it comes back as like some attack. It's this simple your seeing one thing for some time and then whack something completely different. If I had any idea it was going to look like that I would have tried other options. That's all I'm saying. I emailed Steve, he can yell at me, everyone else can relax about what I should have done."​

 

[centralpilot]

Look, any new system is going to have glitches. PrefBid was no different. I wouldn't latch onto one early user complaint just to add ammo to a political fight. I honestly hope this impasse is resolved with the best overall bidding system, whichever it might be.

However this issue illustrates why the multiple bid sheets argument is not a baseless argument made by an "uneducated" MEC or pilot group. Despite "live" bidding previews, which do have useful merit, the lack of multiple bid sheets (or equivalent backup measures) can lead to undesirable results. With a large group of bidding pilots there are sure to be those on the bubble between different strategies. The live previews are simply not good enough without backup measures, especially if you are unavailable to check the system for changes as the bids change. If SmartPref has some backup safety net I'm not aware of, GREAT! I'm just not convinced that it isn't necessary.

 

[FightingIrish]

Nevets, even your scheduling guru admits that things change at the last minute now and that there are lots of things to iron out. Here in his own words on this issue that has popped up.

Quote from Steve on the Pipe regarding the OP issue:

And especially when people start calling 2 hours before the bid closes to learn how to put a bid in. I was literally on the phone trying to help people get their bid in just minutes before it closed. When top people do this is changes the results for everyone. But what was I going to do...tell them to go screw? We need to understand that setting up a bid in this system is the most important thing you can do. I'd say the majority of people we talked to over the last 2 days didn't even read the blastmail that went out over the weekend telling you how important it was to place trip preferences. We also asked to make sure you went into smartpref and chose a reserve line if you bid that way in adopt. The bids in adopt weren't posted until 11am. So at that point we had to go in and change almost a dozen peoples bid from either the default or what they had and put them on reserve so that junior bidders would receive a line. Often time people looked at their lines and said, yup...thats ok...but since those changes were going on the system was actually able to BETTER honor what you asked it for. However it just looked different. It may have moved things around and even added trips but more often than not it was a better award based on the bid. The weak link here is are the bids. We need to teach people better and we need to set up the bids earlier and just set it and forget it. If you set up a good bid there is no reason to keep changing it because it's already bidding the trips you want even if people senior to you already "own" them.

I'm not saying it's perfect....FAR from it! We got a lot of work to do and lots of questions that need to be answered. But at the end of the day I'd much rather be learning about this here and now instead of in a full pbs. (which would honestly work a heck of a lot better than phase II does). We also need to keep our expectations where they should be. This is only meant to replace crew planning. You may have gotten a better line some months with planners. But in 8 years as chairman I've never once gotten and email telling me how great planning built their relief line. I get about a dozen a month asking how the F they could be build a line as the number one guy working all weekends when their junior crashpad buddy is getting them all off. If we put that in perspective I think we're still doing better. There is still a lot of work left to do however.

Steve McKnight


​

 

[FightingIrish]

Look, any new system is going to have glitches. PrefBid was no different. I wouldn't latch onto one early user complaint just to add ammo to a political fight. I honestly hope this impasse is resolved with the best overall bidding system, whichever it might be.

However this issue illustrates why the multiple bid sheets argument is not a baseless argument made by an "uneducated" MEC or pilot group. Despite "live" bidding previews, which do have useful merit, the lack of multiple bid sheets (or equivalent backup measures) can lead to undesirable results. With a large group of bidding pilots there are sure to be those on the bubble between different strategies. The live previews are simply not good enough without backup measures, especially if you are unavailable to check the system for changes as the bids change. If SmartPref has some backup safety net I'm not away of, GREAT! I'm just not convinced that it isn't necessary.

That's the point I'm trying to make. There is no reason not to have the ability to have multiple bid sheets so that you can employ multiple strategies based on different outcomes. I don't understand why they are opposed to this. Clearly "live bidding" doesn't negate the need to have multiple bid sheets. I wish we had more than 3 sometimes.

 

[centralpilot]

That's the point I'm trying to make. There is no reason not to have the ability to have multiple bid sheets so that you can employ multiple strategies based on different outcomes. I don't understand why they are opposed to this. Clearly "live bidding" doesn't negate the need to have multiple bid sheets. I wish we had more than 3 sometimes.

I don't think they are opposed to multiple bid sheets; it is just that the system they prefer overall doesn't work that way. I think they overestimate the ability of live bidding to negate the need, overestimate the accuracy of standing bids, and aren't fully considering the pilot who is not available (out of country, busy, flying) to keep checking the system throughout the bidding window. I wouldn't judge the entire system on that issue alone, but I think automatic implementation of secondary strategies is a valuable feature.

 

[FightingIrish]

I don't think they are opposed to multiple bid sheets; it is just that the system they prefer overall doesn't work that way. I think they overestimate the ability of live bidding to negate the need, overestimate the accuracy of standing bids, and aren't fully considering the pilot who is not available (out of country, busy, flying) to keep checking the system throughout the bidding window. I wouldn't judge the entire system on that issue alone, but I think automatic implementation of secondary strategies is a valuable feature.

The problem is they haven't used PBS and don't fully understand it. We have several years of experience under live conditions and I know they were warned of this problem, yet ignored it.

Anyone who uses PBS for any length of time can tell you that "live bidding" is a gimmick. It doesn't replace a safety net of multiple bid sheets.