Live Smartpref overated?

[Nevets]

I'm curious: What do you mean by this? I know of no globalizing in the FlightLine product.

Ok, globalizing is the wrong word. My only point in the smartpref versus flight line debate is that both may change your final schedule to something better or worse than what you had before. In smartpref, it's transparent. It will change the line only of those in the constrained group with neutral pairings first. But you see the change in your line as it happens if you chose to look. In flight line, it's a blind bid. When it closes, you have no idea what the initial run gave you. Humans subjectively change your line (and everyone else's) multiple times by manipulating the threshold, unstacking, etc, until they come to an agreement that its best for everyone (collectively and not seniority/individually).

To me, it's not that much different than smartpref except that in smartpref the parameters are set, you can see them at all times and cannot be manipulated by any subjective human during or after the bid window closes, and if you choose, you can see if your line changes for the worse or the better depending on what the senior people bid or change their bid, you can see who has bid, changed their bid, how long ago, how many have not bid, if these people are senior to you, you can see which days still have positive coverage or negative coverage, you can set your backup pairings if someone senior to you takes your current pairing, you can see what the remaining average line value needs to be, you can see if you have bid deep enough so that it doesnt run out of possible pairings you have bid,you get your line about 15 minutes after the bid closes (remember no human manipulation if they don't like your line), and I'm positive I'm missing a lot of stuff. There is plenty of information to bid with if you don't want to rely just on the live bid award. Or you can completely ignore all that information and keep bidding blindly like you do with flight line. Smartpref doesn't care.

 

[Pilot Hopeful]

In flight line, it's a blind bid. When it closes, you have no idea what the initial run gave you. Humans subjectively change your line (and everyone else's) multiple times by manipulating the threshold, unstacking, etc, until they come to an agreement that its best for everyone (collectively and not seniority/individually).

Yes, the FlightLine bid is blind, but the pilot has a number of tools available that limit---if not eliminate---any human change to the outcome once a bid is closed.

For example, suppose that, for a given month in one base, each pilot has 100 pairings from which to choose. If every pilot were to order the pairings from 1 to 100 (i.e., submitting 100 distinct pairing bids), each pilot will hold the pairings that his or her seniority allows. Any pairings awarded to senior pilots will not be available; those remaining will.

The FlightLine system does not have the option of awarding any pairing out-of-order to a junior pilot. The only time that any variance is permitted is the extent to which a pilot does not specify a preference among a given number of pairings. In reality, pilots have much more than 100 pairings from which to choose, and submitting a bid that orders every pairing into a list is not practical. This is where outside "influence" comes into play, I think.

Suppose that on a given week, the pilot has the seniority to hold any one of several, 4-day trips. If the pilot has not specifically ordered these four trips (i.e., the pilot does not have a preference for which one is assigned), then the system will assign a trip given some outside parameter (e.g., high credit, TAFB, etc.), which can change on any given bid run. But if the pilot DOES specify some order of preference, then any outside factor determined by the company or the union becomes a mute point. FlightLine must award according to pilot preference.

The pilot has other tools that limit outside influence too. The personal credit threshold (PCT) allows pilots to set a desired credit level for the month. A high PCT allows a pilot to bid and receive high credit for the month, even if the company threshold has been set lower. Similarly, a pilot desiring a low PCT will be awarded a lower credit line for the month, assuming the line falls within the credit window. A generous credit window, say 30 or more hours, affords a wide range of options within the pilot group. It is not uncommon for some pilots to credit 95 hours while others choose to fly only 70-75 hours.

Even with unstacking, the pilot has a great say in what trips are awarded. Using an unstack bid sheet, a pilot can preference every pairing that will be unstacked. The FlightLine logic does not simply award pairings at "random," unless, again, the pilot specifies no preference.

[. . .] you can see if your line changes for the worse or the better depending on what the senior people bid or change their bid, you can see who has bid, changed their bid, how long ago, how many have not bid, if these people are senior to you, you can see which days still have positive coverage or negative coverage, you can set your backup pairings if someone senior to you takes your current pairing, you can see what the remaining average line value needs to be, you can see if you have bid deep enough so that it doesnt run out of possible pairings you have bid,you get your line about 15 minutes after the bid closes.

OK, these are definitely some nice features of SmartPref, especially having a schedule so quickly after bid close! Do these statements apply to all the pilots, including the constrained group?

 

[Nevets]

Yes, the FlightLine bid is blind, but the pilot has a number of tools available that limit---if not eliminate---any human change to the outcome once a bid is closed.

For example, suppose that, for a given month in one base, each pilot has 100 pairings from which to choose. If every pilot were to order the pairings from 1 to 100 (i.e., submitting 100 distinct pairing bids), each pilot will hold the pairings that his or her seniority allows. Any pairings awarded to senior pilots will not be available; those remaining will.

The FlightLine system does not have the option of awarding any pairing out-of-order to a junior pilot. The only time that any variance is permitted is the extent to which a pilot does not specify a preference among a given number of pairings. In reality, pilots have much more than 100 pairings from which to choose, and submitting a bid that orders every pairing into a list is not practical. This is where outside "influence" comes into play, I think.

Suppose that on a given week, the pilot has the seniority to hold any one of several, 4-day trips. If the pilot has not specifically ordered these four trips (i.e., the pilot does not have a preference for which one is assigned), then the system will assign a trip given some outside parameter (e.g., high credit, TAFB, etc.), which can change on any given bid run. But if the pilot DOES specify some order of preference, then any outside factor determined by the company or the union becomes a mute point. FlightLine must award according to pilot preference.

The pilot has other tools that limit outside influence too. The personal credit threshold (PCT) allows pilots to set a desired credit level for the month. A high PCT allows a pilot to bid and receive high credit for the month, even if the company threshold has been set lower. Similarly, a pilot desiring a low PCT will be awarded a lower credit line for the month, assuming the line falls within the credit window. A generous credit window, say 30 or more hours, affords a wide range of options within the pilot group. It is not uncommon for some pilots to credit 95 hours while others choose to fly only 70-75 hours.

Even with unstacking, the pilot has a great say in what trips are awarded. Using an unstack bid sheet, a pilot can preference every pairing that will be unstacked. The FlightLine logic does not simply award pairings at "random," unless, again, the pilot specifies no preference.


OK, these are definitely some nice features of SmartPref, especially having a schedule so quickly after bid close! Do these statements apply to all the pilots, including the constrained group?

Yeah, smartpref does those things as well. It will use neutral trips to build a viable solution. For the restricted group, it will try to do that as well but the one feature that doesn't work for the constrained group is the ability to rearrange your backup trips. But everyone is able to pick their credit window as well. There are three credit windows to pick from so its not whatever the pilot wants to set.

 

[Pilot Hopeful]

It will use neutral trips to build a viable solution.

What is a "neutral trip"?

 

[Nevets]

What is a "neutral trip"?

It's just as you explained in your third and fourth paragraph.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Three credit windows? Like:

70-85, 86-100, 101-120?

There it is folks.

 

[enuffalready]

bottom line is the LXJT peeps introduced this TURD into the punchbowl.. now thats its there is has polluted the entire process of which now management is siding with LXJT ( WONDER WHY$$$$$).

Excellent work LXJT guys... all you had to do was tweak what we had , but NOOOOOO, you had to d!ck up the entire thing and we will ALL have worse QOL

job well done!

 

[centralpilot]

Maybe, but all indications show not anytime soon. XJT and Skywest have all but stopped hiring. Meanwhile Eagle is hiring 600+, and RAH 800+

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk 2

THE ANALYSIS: Parker said he still thinks there are two near-term potential pieces of contractual flying for regional airlines, with United and U.S. Airways, totaling up to 265 larger regional jets. In addition, American may award additional regional jet flying, which could go to SkyWest, he said.
"Because of its strong balance sheet, we believe SkyWest is well-positioned to secure some of the aircraft in the additional contracts, none of which is reflected in our current estimates," Parker wrote in a note to investors.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/skywest-shares-fall-raymond-james-202103424.html

Mind you I have zero optimism about that. I assume the United RFP is why XJT wants large RJ pay rates for the L-XJT side. I still think that has more to do with the L-XJT CPA with UAL than it does with management trying to pressure L-ASA in negotiations (just a happy side benefit). I'm more curious about US Airways. I have no idea what could be up for bid with them. If it is CRJ flying in the eastern US it could be in SKYW Inc's wheelhouse.

Then again nothing that would enhance my career progression is apparently ever allowed to happen. The most likely outcome is L-XJT resumes massive hiring, someone else gets the US Airways flying, and I see my 8th year in the right seat. Meanwhile L-ASA furloughees that made Captain at GoJet will get hired by UAL this spring. I think I need a drink...

 

[Nevets]

Three credit windows? Like:

70-85, 86-100, 101-120?

There it is folks.

To be honest, I don't know if its just 3 or if its more. In any case, it's not required for bidding. You can build a line with as much flying or little flying (contractually) as you want without using the credit window feature. It's easily done by preferencing high value trips.

 

[CaribPilot]

Yep. Republic negotiates 53 E-jets and we're squabbling over this. The best we've come up with lately is managing to hang on to 350+ rotting 50-seat jets.

This is painfully hilarious and true.

 

[Pilot Hopeful]

You can build a line with as much flying or little flying (contractually) as you want without using the credit window feature. It's easily done by preferencing high value trips.

Is this true for the constrained group also? My understanding of SmartPref is that any pilot falling below the splat line really does not have these options.

Moreover, the LASA MEC whitepaper has suggested that globalizing could affect more than 50% of the pilots in smaller domiciles EVERY MONTH. Whereas PrefBid allows pilots some limited control with the undesirable unstacking case in holiday months, SmartPref would give no control over the final bid award for those pilots falling below the splat line. Is this understanding correct or incomplete? How do you think SmartPref balances these undesirables with positives?

 

[Nevets]

Is this true for the constrained group also? My understanding of SmartPref is that any pilot falling below the splat line really does not have these options.

Moreover, the LASA MEC whitepaper has suggested that globalizing could affect more than 50% of the pilots in smaller domiciles EVERY MONTH. Whereas PrefBid allows pilots some limited control with the undesirable unstacking case in holiday months, SmartPref would give no control over the final bid award for those pilots falling below the splat line. Is this understanding correct or incomplete? How do you think SmartPref balances these undesirables with positives?

It depends on what everyone senior has bid. Smartpref will tell you in real time what the average line value needs to be for it to cover the remaining open time. As for globalization, just like flight line with unstacking, it can affect a bigger percentage of the pilot group as the number of pilots decreases. Smartpref does tell you which days are going to be unstacked, if any. The positive is that it tells you ahead of time if you are in the constrained group, what the average line value needs to be from you and those below you in seniority, and it tells you which days if any are being unstacked (you get to see it through live bidding instead of after the line is awarded.

 

[Pilot Hopeful]

[. . .] and it tells you which days if any are being unstacked (you get to see it through live bidding instead of after the line is awarded.

For the constrained group affected by unstacking, is there a way for these pilots to preference unstacked pairings? Or will Smartpref assign pairings as it desires?

Under Prefbid, the pilot group may not know EXACTLY where the system will need to invoke unstacking (though ALPA does recommend that the most junior pilots submit an unstack bid), but it is not a big issue to preference pairings around expected unstacking days (e.g., holidays).

For example, Prefbid might need to unstack around Christmas. Now, depending on how senior pilots bid, the unstack might be for Christmas pairings only, or it might affect pairings that fall a day or two on either side of Christmas. The unknown does not affect my bid, as I preference all potential pairings:

Unstack Pref 1: Pairings departing Dec 27
Unstack Pref 2: Pairings departing Dec 26
Unstack Pref 3: Pairings finishing Dec 23
Unstack Pref 4: Pairings finishing Dec 24
Unstack Pref 5: Pairings departing Dec 25 after 1200
Unstack Pref 6: Pairings finishing Dec 25 before 1200
Unstack Pref 7: Pairings departing Dec 25
Unstack Pref 8: Pairings finishing Dec 25
Unstack Pref 9: Pairings departing Dec 24
Unstack Pref 10: Pairings departing Dec 23
Unstack Pref 11: Pairings departing Dec 22
etc.

Using the preview window, I then can confirm that I have bid all the appropriate pairings. If unstacking is required, a list of affected pairings is generated. If I happen to be a pilot affected by unstacking, Prefbid will start at the top of my unstack preferences and work down until it finds criteria matching one of the unstack pairings. Provided that pairing has not been requested by and assigned to a senior bidder, I will receive the pairing. (If unstacking does not affect me, Prefbid will not need to consider my unstack preferences; it will look only at my other bid sheets.)

Under a globalized system, I do not think such selection of unstack pairings is possible. So to compare and contrast:
SmartPref: Pilots know if they are in the constrained group, but they have no way of preferencing which pairings they might receive?
Prefbid: Pilots may not know for sure if they will be unstacked, but they have complete control of ordering all unstack pairings according to their preferences.

 

[p51d59]

Why are we having this discussion over a system being used for reserves and relief lines? They can’t, hold a line in the first bid. One of them bitch’s about not getting what he wants. A discussion starts about who’s system is better.
Instead of getting this merger done, with better pay, benefits, work rules etc. There are now rumors of concessions, pay cuts, lost benefits etc.
Great job to you all, keep the argument going, till where all out of work. There are a lot of us for one reason or another that will not be able to move on to main line. Look around the next time you’re in the crew room there are a lot of pilots that where going to the majors 10-15 years ago and where still here.
In ten years you may be the one where looking at, wondering why your still here.
I don't have the answer to this problem that is dragging our future deeper down this sh_t hole. But the argument we have been having for two years on this, is not the answer.

 

[WWEfan]

Sounds like PrefBid wins. Thanks for the debate.