A/C order question for Delta guys

[BentOver]

Do you guys have any A320NEO's or 737MAX aircraft on order? I see that the 737-9 is slated to replace some A320's at Delta...

Does anyone know how the 737MAX will compare to say...a 737-900 size wise? And also what kind of routes do you see the 737-9 doing?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

No Neos or Max.....

We got the Northwest Management team fouling balls into the crowd, buying any used plane they can get their hands on.

The -900 will do all those 757 routes like DCA-ATL or ATL-FLL where they are using 757's. They are almost the same capacity (6 seat difference). They are coming with ETOPS, I think it's for the Hawaii stuff.

They backed off the 757 crossing the pond (and went back to 767s) because of the customer complaints and the cargo capacities. I doubt they will move the 737s over there, but these guys change plans weekly.

FYI the 757 to 767 switchback is also because we were fat on 767s just sitting around after we have codeshared all the transatlantic away.

 

[airksk]

Have fun with the -900 in DCA. Management likes to think it's a 757 replacement. It's not.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

that's my point.....or did you not find my sarcasm?

 

[General Lee]

The 737-900ERs are direct replacements for older 757s, some A320s, and a few domestic 767-300s. The 757s with winglets are probably going to stay, since they decided to throw winglets on them and pay for that expense. The 17 ex TWA 757s (all with winglets) are fairly new compared to the older block 5500 NWA 757s, and will stay for years to come. I believe about 40 320s will leave, 50 or so 757s, and I guess about 10 older 767DOMs.

The company does like to buy older planes. I have heard that approval was received to buy all the remaining MD90s out there (I think 120 or so were built), and most are about $8-9 million each, including the engines. Throw in the 717 deal, and yes, there were will older planes around, but they are fairly nice and keep the debt down. I think they want to bring the debt down to around $10 billion by the end of next year so they can start saving about $500 million per year in interest alone. Then, maybe there will be a widebody order. I've heard rumors of possibly 773s. DL has recently invested a lot of money into modifying the other widebodies (all 744s have been finished now) with new AVOD (personal TVs), and lie flat seats, so I don't think they will be leaving the fleet for 5-10 years. It would be nice to get some widebodies that would be used for growth, instead of replacements. As I stated, all of the current widebodies are getting new mods right now, which is a good sign. Who knows?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Diesel-9]

The older block fNW 55XX airframes were built 85-89. There are 12 of them. fDAL has 40 similar series 757's built in the 80's. The 24 757's from fNWA in the 56XX series are late 90's production and the 16 757-300 58XX are 10 years old or less. Many different blocks etc. but to say it is the NW 757's that are the oldest is not accurate which crew resources always seems to mention. They never mention it is the fNW A-330's which give DAL the one of the youngest widebody fleets. Of the 80 oldest DAL 757's that are 20+ years old, fDAL has 68 of them.

 

[igneousy2]

Have fun with the -900 in DCA. Management likes to think it's a 757 replacement. It's not.

We were right at max landing going into IAH the other day at Vapp inside the marker when we blew by a 777 on approach to the parallel. Our ref must have been easily 30 knots faster than his.

The 737-900 is at the practical aerodynamic limits for this wing. I am disappointed that Boeing has elected to stay with this dinosaur for the rest of my career, especially considering that the overall trend for NB's is larger. I think a re-engined, 757 with an upgraded avionics package, and a modern wing would be a much better aircraft. The only reason to not use the 757 frame was because of the 737-600 and 700 sized airplanes, now that it's pretty apparent that very few of these sized airplanes will be purchased going forward, I think a re-hacked 757 with LEAP engines would have been a knockout punch to airbus.

 

[SWA Bubba]

We were right at max landing going into IAH the other day at Vapp inside the marker when we blew by a 777 on approach to the parallel. Our ref must have been easily 30 knots faster than his.

The 737-900 is at the practical aerodynamic limits for this wing. I am disappointed that Boeing has elected to stay with this dinosaur for the rest of my career, especially considering that the overall trend for NB's is larger. I think a re-engined, 757 with an upgraded avionics package, and a modern wing would be a much better aircraft. The only reason to not use the 757 frame was because of the 737-600 and 700 sized airplanes, now that it's pretty apparent that very few of these sized airplanes will be purchased going forward, I think a re-hacked 757 with LEAP engines would have been a knockout punch to airbus.

The way I understood it was that Boeing discontinued the 757 some years back due to a loss of its market. Not so much the 737-600 (shorter) or the -700 (base length), but the -800s and -900s (stretched) capacities, with next step up being the new (at the time, upcoming) 787's capacities, all with with more fuel efficiency. That led to there being no market left for the 757. For the consumers (the airlines), it's all about the lowest fuel cost to move each seat.

And as far as keeping the 737 going with a new generation, that was mainly decided by the airline consumers. Boeing waffled between this and an all-new narrow body, and the demand from the airlines (chiefly Southwest) for a Airbus NEO competitor sooner rather than later drove that decision. Basically, Boeing could fly a revamped 737 faster than they could a new replacement model. Thus, the decision was made.

Bubba

 

[Saluki Dawg]

Tha MAX should not be considered a long term narrowbody solution by Boeing. I think they bought themselves 5-8 years MAX (pun intended). They need to be working on a clean sheet design while the MAX is still in development so that they are ready to bring a new frame to market in the 2020-23 timeframe at the latest.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

The 737-900ERs are direct replacements for older 757s, some A320s, and a few domestic 767-300s. The 757s with winglets are probably going to stay, since they decided to throw winglets on them and pay for that expense. The 17 ex TWA 757s (all with winglets) are fairly new compared to the older block 5500 NWA 757s, and will stay for years to come. I believe about 40 320s will leave, 50 or so 757s, and I guess about 10 older 767DOMs.

The company does like to buy older planes. I have heard that approval was received to buy all the remaining MD90s out there (I think 120 or so were built), and most are about $8-9 million each, including the engines. Throw in the 717 deal, and yes, there were will older planes around, but they are fairly nice and keep the debt down. I think they want to bring the debt down to around $10 billion by the end of next year so they can start saving about $500 million per year in interest alone. Then, maybe there will be a widebody order. I've heard rumors of possibly 773s. DL has recently invested a lot of money into modifying the other widebodies (all 744s have been finished now) with new AVOD (personal TVs), and lie flat seats, so I don't think they will be leaving the fleet for 5-10 years. It would be nice to get some widebodies that would be used for growth, instead of replacements. As I stated, all of the current widebodies are getting new mods right now, which is a good sign. Who knows?


Bye Bye---General Lee

General,

Spin it how you like, but wide body orders creates movement.....more bodies required. How many wide bodies are on order? A handful of 787s way off on the horizon in 2020. The what if rumors out there are just that....rumors. These guys are in the virtual airline business and we will be forced to retire on whatever version of the 737 Southwest tells Boeing they want.

 

[General Lee]

General,

Spin it how you like, but wide body orders creates movement.....more bodies required. How many wide bodies are on order? A handful of 787s way off on the horizon in 2020. The what if rumors out there are just that....rumors. These guys are in the virtual airline business and we will be forced to retire on whatever version of the 737 Southwest tells Boeing they want.

You're right, and we are all waiting for a juicy widebody order. That will be great. In the meantime, create a better product and spruce up the current widebodies (don't park them or sell them), and then watch retirements cause upward movement. I want to see a widebody order also, but not parking the planes and actually throwing in a better product (lie flat seats, AVOD), is not bad either. It's better than the alternative.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jonjuan]

General,

Spin it how you like, but wide body orders creates movement.....more bodies required. How many wide bodies are on order? A handful of 787s way off on the horizon in 2020. The what if rumors out there are just that....rumors. These guys are in the virtual airline business and we will be forced to retire on whatever version of the 737 Southwest tells Boeing they want.

He's ok with that as he loves the 717 and can't wait to do 5 legs a day to BHM, GPT, and TLH.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I think a re-engined, 757 with an upgraded avionics package, and a modern wing would be a much better aircraft. The only reason to not use the 757 frame was because of the 737-600 and 700 sized airplanes, now that it's pretty apparent that very few of these sized airplanes will be purchased going forward, I think a re-hacked 757 with LEAP engines would have been a knockout punch to airbus.

Not for the passengers.

As a professional airline passenger (and spouse of a DL/NERD pilot), I LOATHE riding in the back of a 757, especially Delta's. The 7-5 is the definition of NARROW BODY.

I fly a MINIMUM of 50 airline trips a year (mostly coach) as a paying customer and my preferences are as follows for passenger experience:

Narrow Body

A-319/320/321
B-737
E-190
B-757
B-717
MD-80 Series
All the other RJ's

Wide Body

A-330/340
B-777
B-747
B-767
MD-10/11

Haven't ridden on the 787 or the 380 yet.

I know most of you couldn't give a rip about the comfort in the back but it hopefully does factor in the selection process by the poo-bah's in the executive suite.

Of course, none of them come close to the ride in the back of a G-550

 

[JohnQ]

As someone who loves flying the 757, but doesn't love deadheading in the back of one, I sympathize. Why did you put the 757 ahead of the M88? I always prefer the 2x3 configuration on that aircraft. Only one out of five seats is a middle seat.

 

[General Lee]

He's ok with that as he loves the 717 and can't wait to do 5 legs a day to BHM, GPT, and TLH.

First off, turn around and say hi to Uncle Sal for me. Next, I am awaiting a bid on the 737 Captain seat in ATL, which may be coming up here soon since we start getting 100 new 739ERs mid next year. Can't wait. Bill can have the 717.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Sure......leave my widebody for a 717?

Yeah, sign me up General!! You have me mistaken for an F/O

 

[jrcpilot]

Tha MAX should not be considered a long term narrowbody solution by Boeing. I think they bought themselves 5-8 years MAX (pun intended). They need to be working on a clean sheet design while the MAX is still in development so that they are ready to bring a new frame to market in the 2020-23 timeframe at the latest.

Very good point. There is something on the drawing board. uncle is a Chief engineer at Boeing. Discussions and planning are well underway for a NB Composite variant of the dreamliner. Your 5-8 year time span is right on the mark according to him.

 

[gutshotdraw]

As someone who loves flying the 757, but doesn't love deadheading in the back of one, I sympathize. Why did you put the 757 ahead of the M88? I always prefer the 2x3 configuration on that aircraft. Only one out of five seats is a middle seat.

Primarily noise level. If I'm aft of about row 23 on a Mad Dog, my ears ring for two days. If I'm aft of the galley, it's three days. And I wear the QC-15. With earplugs...

Overhead bins on the MD are a joke too and I NEVER check a bag unless the gate agent has a gun to my head.

 

[General Lee]

Sure......leave my widebody for a 717?

Yeah, sign me up General!! You have me mistaken for an F/O

Sorry, it's hard to tell from your profile.........I wonder if we have flown together on the 7ER??? HMMMMM.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[igneousy2]

Not for the passengers.

As a professional airline passenger (and spouse of a DL/NERD pilot), I LOATHE riding in the back of a 757, especially Delta's. The 7-5 is the definition of NARROW BODY.

I fly a MINIMUM of 50 airline trips a year (mostly coach) as a paying customer and my preferences are as follows for passenger experience:

Narrow Body

A-319/320/321
B-737
E-190
B-757
B-717
MD-80 Series
All the other RJ's

Wide Body

A-330/340
B-777
B-747
B-767
MD-10/11

Haven't ridden on the 787 or the 380 yet.

I know most of you couldn't give a rip about the comfort in the back but it hopefully does factor in the selection process by the poo-bah's in the executive suite.

Of course, none of them come close to the ride in the back of a G-550

You can't compare a 757 to a 737 in the back...the airlines have a large range of options in the back (they sometimes have someone other than Boeing outfitting the passenger cabin in fact). You also might be comparing a 1980's 757 to an NG. Try comparing a 737-Classic to a 757 and I think you will see that it's realy the same tube...just a little higher off the ground due to the longer landing gear. There is no reason Boeing couldn't have made the same improvements to the interior that they made on the 757 to the 737. Also, try riding a former CAL 737NG to an Alaska NG. CAL has nicer gizmos on the seats...Alaska has a sightly thicker seat cushion making the choice difficult. I personally prefer the thicker seat cushion.

Anyway...

 

[gutshotdraw]

You can't compare a 757 to a 737 in the back...the airlines have a large range of options in the back (they sometimes have someone other than Boeing outfitting the passenger cabin in fact). You also might be comparing a 1980's 757 to an NG. Try comparing a 737-Classic to a 757 and I think you will see that it's realy the same tube...just a little higher off the ground due to the longer landing gear. There is no reason Boeing couldn't have made the same improvements to the interior that they made on the 757 to the 737. Also, try riding a former CAL 737NG to an Alaska NG. CAL has nicer gizmos on the seats...Alaska has a sightly thicker seat cushion making the choice difficult. I personally prefer the thicker seat cushion.

Anyway...

And as a passenger, I'll take the Bus over either of them.

Actually rode a brand new Alaska -900 three days ago. So new it had that "new car smell." Funky new overhead panels with the space age lites and the goofiest wemac vents I've ever seen and the low profile, composite shell seats. A pretty nice ride overall but the Bus has more shoulder room and I'm 6'4", 230.

Saddest part was watching some lady deplaning in front of me drag her too-wide rollaboard down the aisle smashing the crap out of the nice, clean, new aisle seats. And she'd probably be the first to complain about beat-up airliners....

 

[fr8doggie]

I fly a MINIMUM of 50 airline trips a year (mostly coach) as a paying customer and my preferences are as follows for passenger experience:

Narrow Body

A-319/320/321
B-737
E-190
B-757
B-717
MD-80 Series
All the other RJ's

Wide Body

A-330/340
B-777
B-747
B-767
MD-10/11

I'm curious how many times you've ridden in an MD-10? And when was the last time you rode in an MD-11?

Regards,
Fr8doggie

 

[gutshotdraw]

I'm curious how many times you've ridden in an MD-10? And when was the last time you rode in an MD-11?

Regards,
Fr8doggie

Rode the -10 on Hawaiian a LOT back in the day. Had a trip or two on somebody's -11 but then they started converting them all to freighters. Wonder why that was....

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I'm curious how many times you've ridden in an MD-10? And when was the last time you rode in an MD-11?

Regards,
Fr8doggie

Does it matter? Really?

 

[BentOver]

Ok...so was that a no, Delta has not ordered any A320NEO or 737MAX

How the heck did an a/c order question turn into a "fractional pilots don't like riding as passengers in the back of pt.121 airplanes thread!!"

I get it, a corporate jet, which none of us here will ever be a passenger in (on our own $$) is much more comfortable than a 757. We don't need to hear about how much airlining sucks every time you're on day 7 and jump on Facebook to joke about it.:beer:

 

[DYLIN]

Saddest part was watching some lady deplaning in front of me drag her too-wide rollaboard down the aisle smashing the crap out of the nice, clean, new aisle seats. And she'd probably be the first to complain about beat-up airliners....

Well, that just goes back to the Airbus again.

C'mon Boeing . . . a few more inches?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Ok...so was that a no, Delta has not ordered any A320NEO or 737MAX

How the heck did an a/c order question turn into a "fractional pilots don't like riding as passengers in the back of pt.121 airplanes thread!!"

I get it, a corporate jet, which none of us here will ever be a passenger in (on our own $$) is much more comfortable than a 757. We don't need to hear about how much airlining sucks every time you're on day 7 and jump on Facebook to joke about it.:beer:

Not complaining. It's part of the job. Just saying it is/would be nice if the executive suite of a US airline actually factors passenger experience into the aircraft procurement equation.

And Facebook is a datamining scourge and I refuse to participate....:smash:

 

[CheapFlyer]

we blew by a 777 on approach to the parallel. Our ref must have been easily 30 knots faster than his.

The 737-900 is at the practical aerodynamic limits for this wing.

FYI: The NG's are geometrically limited, not aerodynamically limited. They increase the ref speeds so you don't hit the tail. At least that's what I've been told.

 

[jonjuan]

Not complaining. It's part of the job. Just saying it is/would be nice if the executive suite of a US airline actually factors passenger experience into the aircraft procurement equation.

It's so CEOs like Gary Kelly at Southwest can pay his senior CAs $260K/year (plus a $26K/year 401k match) or 60% more than a corporate GV CA (with a significantly smaller 401k match). Maybe if corporate CEOs valued their senior CAs better.

 

[fr8doggie]

Does it matter? Really?

Only in the nitpicking sense that FDX is the only airline to ever operate the MD-10. Now, if you are talking about a DC-10 that is a whole 'nother issue.


Regards,
Fr8-