DELTA TA-Position Paper for a Yes Vote.

[daviator]

http://dalforums.alpa.org/Portals/3/activeforums_Attach/TA_Point_Paper.pdf

Sorry, I couldn't link it better. Also, the author is not a union rep but a line pilot who has done his own analysis. Enjoy!

 

[jetflier]

R ead
O nly
N o

 

[aeolian]

http://dalforums.alpa.org/Portals/3/activeforums_Attach/TA_Point_Paper.pdf

Sorry, I couldn't link it better. Also, the author is not a union rep but a line pilot who has done his own analysis. Enjoy!

That is analysis for pilots who:
A) Think.
B) Read it in its entirety with a mind that is 1) sober, 2) open and 3) rational.

It is valuable to both DAL pilots and all others. (USAPA pilots in particular should benefit.) We don't get this kind of progress without the wisdom which comes from deep understanding of and experience from involvement with multiple pilot groups. Only a national union possesses such.

Well done daviator.

Aeolian

 

[Skippy]

So if there is a furlough, which 6 seats will be removed? The first class? Riiiight

 

[waveflyer]

I'm positive there was a position paper in the 90's when the first jet went off the property as well....
"why waste negotiating capital....."

You guys sign of on this and you'll see outsourcing be just as rampant- just asks replaced by larger RJs

 

[fam62c]

I'm positive there was a position paper in the 90's when the first jet went off the property as well....
"why waste negotiating capital....."

You guys sign of on this and you'll see outsourcing be just as rampant- just asks replaced by larger RJs

You are right Wave, the genie got out of the bottle long ago and it's not going to get put back here. The best hope is that as retirements pick up and the majors drain the regionals of their pilots the small airlines simply find it impossible to staff their operations well enough to provide reliable service to their networks. I believe this is the one thing that may force better pay, working conditions and hopefully combined seniority lists or actually taking small jet flying in house. The reality is that captains and probably 75% of FO's (as well all the other employees in the company) at majors are not willing to work for less to get smaller planes on the property at a workable cost structure.

I don't think it would be any different at SW. If managment offered growth, promotions, pay and other incentives along with an assurance that no existing employees would be harmed in exchange for the right to operate some 76 seaters under subcontract I think the SW folks would jump on it. It's very hard to turn down improvements (and almost impossible to give up some of what you already have) to prevent a situation that you don't believe will have any bearing on your career path personally. That's just the way that it is, don't be to hard on the DAL guys for accepting something that the majority of the SW guys (or pretty much any pilots group) would accept if placed in the same position. Greed is a big part of the airline pilot psyche.

 

[RJ Bum]

You are right Wave, the genie got out of the bottle long ago and it's not going to get put back here. The best hope is that as retirements pick up and the majors drain the regionals of their pilots the small airlines simply find it impossible to staff their operations well enough to provide reliable service to their networks. I believe this is the one thing that may force better pay, working conditions and hopefully combined seniority lists or actually taking small jet flying in house. The reality is that captains and probably 75% of FO's (as well all the other employees in the company) at majors are not willing to work for less to get smaller planes on the property at a workable cost structure.

I don't think it would be any different at SW. If managment offered growth, promotions, pay and other incentives along with an assurance that no existing employees would be harmed in exchange for the right to operate some 76 seaters under subcontract I think the SW folks would jump on it. It's very hard to turn down improvements (and almost impossible to give up some of what you already have) to prevent a situation that you don't believe will have any bearing on your career path personally. That's just the way that it is, don't be to hard on the DAL guys for accepting something that the majority of the SW guys (or pretty much any pilots group) would accept if placed in the same position. Greed is a big part of the airline pilot psyche.

^^^ Great post! Sums up how pilots should take some responsibility for destroying this profession. Maybe, just maybe DAL and UniCal can change history.....

Jeremy Bentham: "It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right and wrong."

 

[waveflyer]

The difference is fam, we have 20+ years of RJ outsourcing experience to teach us better.
I actually don't think SWA guys would go for it, as evidenced by their contract- and if swapa did, I would be every bit as harsh with them. And conversely, as critical as I've been, you guys turn this down and I'll be DALPAs biggest cheerleader. You go back and get a -900 on the property and you'll hear so much praise.
6 airlines fam.

 

[waveflyer]

You are correct. We are currently at the max 255 and the only way to get more 76 seaters is to park the 70 seaters as to never exceed the 255. Currently there is 102 70's and 153 76 seaters. If this TA passes those 102 70 seaters will be grandfathered in and 70 more 76 seaters will be allowed.

This is from the Delta TA on scope where I asked what current scope limits were-

Can anyone dispute this?

If not, this position paper doesn't just attempt to muddy the waters on scope, leaving out crucial information, but it's outright misleading.

The gains in scope this TA provides does not come close to the damage it does in solidifying the outsourcing of -900's as the competitive normal.

 

[1st Rate]

I am voting YES as well!!

 

[waveflyer]

And that yes vote is bullsh/t.
Coward level selfishness and naivety -
There's no excuse for any DALPA member to be ignorant of the ramifications of this vote.
You do this and you cut the legs out from under AA and Unical's efforts to not outsource -900's- the competive foundation will be allowing hundreds of 76 seat -900's- and now the bar on how large a jet can be outsourced has been pushed upward again.

Where does it stop?

 

[Scoot 11]

And that yes vote is bullsh/t.
Coward level selfishness and naivety -
There's no excuse for any DALPA member to be ignorant of the ramifications of this vote.
You do this and you cut the legs out from under AA and Unical's efforts to not outsource -900's- the competive foundation will be allowing hundreds of 76 seat -900's- and now the bar on how large a jet can be outsourced has been pushed upward again.

Where does it stop?

How about this you hypocrite. MYOFB!
Concentrate on how YOUR airline has brought down pay/workrules/No retirement, while undercutting the legacies on pay for training. This is the DL pilots' issue. You don't have any business criticizing ANYONE in this industry. You just agreed to fly "bigger airplanes," for the same money. Flying "international" for NO ADDITIONAL PAY! Worry about your own house. Seems like the camel's nose is about to rear its ugly head when you start losing 717's and no airframe replacements. You have no business critiquing anyone in this industry. I for one have not decided on how to vote until I attend a road show, but I will not stand by when someone from an airline who has done NOTHING to better the industry, lectures me on how we are selling out the industry.

 

[waveflyer]

6 airlines Scoot. I know you don't like swa- good for you- get in line.
None of which has anything to do with the FACT that this TA will be highly influential at EVERY airline. Thus IS me MMOFB. There is not a pilot in the world who doesn't have a right to speak about you farming out jobs. That's a compliment. It is indicative of DALPA's stature in aviation. There is only one airline bigger, and they're represented by two MECs. DALPA is the largest, most influential voice in the airlines and your vote will have far reaching consequences. Remember that as you cast your vote.

On behalf of the thousands of pilots who have had their job outsourced and haven't been as lucky to find a job at a major, I have zero issue speaking my mind about it.

It's funny you mention swa though. As a swapa member, I benefit far more in the short term, by you reaching parity with our rates than by a scope issue. I really can't wait until the network legacies leapfrog us completely. But I've learned that scope is a HUGE part of the pressure on wages. It's much more important than rates.

 

[General Lee]

Wave,

Scoot is right. Clean up your own problems like paying for your initial type rating first before focusing on our TA. A lot of this is because other legacy carriers can't get their own acts together, and pattern bargaining is a bust. The NMB told our MEC in person that pattern bargaining would be the deal in mediation, and said only AA, UAL, and US would be considered. She also said no retro pay would be allowed. So, you can either get 20% now and have it by the time normal section 6 contracts would have been completed, or you can hope to get the same 2 years from the ammedable date. Not a sure thing at all.

Scope is tightened, losing 80 total RJ hulls, and additional 76 seaters are tied in to 717s coming on line. If they don't, they don't get additional 76 seaters. If they park mainline planes, they have to park RJs. It's a ratio, favoring mainline. Add better INTL scope and domestic code shares too, all in a 3 year contract.


So, quit trying to call people names and instead go hug an AirTran brother or sister. After how they were treated by many in your group, they deserve one.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[tomgoodman]

The NMB told our MEC in person that pattern bargaining would be the deal in mediation, and said only AA, UAL, and US would be considered. She also said no retro pay would be allowed.

If true, that's a gross and premature interference in the collective bargaining process. Why don't they save time and write the contract themselves?

 

[PCL_128]

If true, that's a gross and premature interference in the collective bargaining process.

Nah, that's part of their job. They preach doom and gloom to both sides in order to provide motivation for both parties to bargain in good faith towards reaching a deal. They tell DALPA what the General mentioned, and then they go meet with Richard Anderson and tell him that if he's not careful, they'll release DALPA and the President will issue a pro-labor PEB. Both sides get scared, both sides therefore bargain in good faith, and a deal is reached, preventing the NMB from having to take any drastic measures to resolve the dispute. It's not a pretty process, but it works.

 

[tomgoodman]

PCL,

Thanks for that explanation. It sounds like the NMB warns each side: "One of these days we will surprise you by telling the truth, and then you'll be sorry." I think it would be better if the NMB rep were the only honest person in the room, instead of merely the third liar. That way, if he or she did make a threat, it would be believed.

 

[Speedtape]

I'm positive there was a position paper in the 90's when the first jet went off the property as well....
"why waste negotiating capital....."

You guys sign of on this and you'll see outsourcing be just as rampant- just asks replaced by larger RJs

So from looking at your profile, it was OK to outsource RJs when you flew them?

 

[Snaab]

The TA position paper does point out lots of positives for a 'yes' vote- especially in the YOY pay increases. That's some serious coinage Delta pilots in any a/c or seat will pocket. The scope language seems to be pretty specific, too, and finally seems to move some flying back to Delta SNB aircraft and away from DCI aircraft.

I'm a regional Captain (looking onward and upward) and think it's a step in the right direction for Delta and the industry. Thanks for posting that position paper. It was an interesting read.

Just curious what some people think the drawbacks/negatives of the TA are..

-Snaab

 

[JumpersAway]

So, quit trying to call people names and instead go hug an AirTran brother or sister. After how they were treated by many in your group, they deserve one.


Bye Bye---General Lee

LOL! This is the quote of the morning, and thusly, deserves special attention!!!!! Kudos General, Kudos!