Retirement age- would you know when to hang it up?

[waveflyer]

BringUpTheBird and Yip will not answer this.

Assuming you aren't burnt or just ready to pack it in- you love flying, love the job- Would you be able to objectively evaluate your own abilities as you age?

Now, throw in some money pressures....

 

[Jar Jar]

No the old guys aren't even able to distinguish a runway from a taxiway, how on Earth would they be cognizant enough to realize it was time to retire?

The FAA medical checks are a joke, half these guys just walk in and get a signature for $100 and leave.

Nah, instead they will fly until someone tells them they can't. Sit in the chair, bank 5 mil bucks, and then die a year later.

 

[TMMT]

People tend to grow more bull-headed, set in their ways even if wrong, in their old age... not wiser.

 

[flyboyike]

BringUpTheBird and Yip will not answer this.

Assuming you aren't burnt or just ready to pack it in- you love flying, love the job- Would you be able to objectively evaluate your own abilities as you age?

Now, throw in some money pressures....

Seeing as in the event of "fly until you die" being passed, I will most likely still be an RJ FO on reserve sitting next to the same old decrepit fossils I'm sitting next to now (except they will be pushing 90), I can tell you there is no way I'll be doing this after 60. I'll be lucky to make it to 55 without the very sight of an airplane making me sick. Abilities won't even get a chance to be a factor. Neither will financial pressures, since I'll still be an FO. My saving grace there is that I've always lived within my means.

 

[pilotyip]

Thanks I am watching, the reality is though I can fly jets in 135 as long as I want.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Why don't you think I'd answer? The question has no validity since every other measure a pilot must meet is objective and evaluated by another party. For cognitiv ability that should be under the purview of the AME. For performance it should be under the check airman and/or FAA inspector.

But yes, I think if I am able to self-certify that I'm not sick or fatigued or drunk, I can evaluate whether or not I can continue to fly an airplane safely. If I can't and no F/O reports me, then they are negligent.

I feel that most people charged to oversee safety issues are not incompetent conspirators looking to deny F/O's their upgrade. But that's just 30 yrs of commercial flying talking.

 

[pilotyip]

How about we go back to the ability to write an ACT of 29 to prove mental agility? Good test of intelligence as a person ages. That would cut down the on the slower thinking pilots regardless of age:laugh:

 

[spitfire1500]

Heck no....I'd be riding the $ and seniority gravy train the last few years (hopefully) and if that were actually the case...I'm not going to quit $200K a year over a little health issue that my AME probably would never notice.....

 

[LearLove]

I have no objection to flying at any age as long as you pass your checks and medical.

What I do have a beef wrt age 60 is the guys that are at the top of the heap now got to move up because of all the retirements in the 70's and 80's but now they want to stay. Wonder what kind of kicking and screaming we would have gotten from the baby boomer crowd if age 65 was implemented back in 1982.

I understand situations like EAL and PAA guys who had to start all over or a guy who stayed in the military only to be rifted in the early 90's. These aren't the uber senior guys who have had a great ride. I understand why these guys need to stay until 65. I'm referring to the guy born in 1949 and hired in the late 70's at a major who upgraded by 1985 and has held every weekend and holiday off while flying a widebody since 1991. That's the guy that needs to get the f'ck out IMHO.

Put it another way - I'm not scared of engine failures, fires or some raghead trying to get into the cockpit. These things we are trained to deal with and can handle. What I am scared of is Joe Uber Senior Baby Boomer Widebody Captain or any Management (especially the ones who have compensation tied to stock options) - these are the dudes that will toss our junior butts under the buss for an extra dime.

 

[waveflyer]

For the record on this thread- I don't think I'd be good at evaluating my permanent age related mental decline.

Here's the difference Bring- we self certify for having a head cold- heck, even cancer- as temporary issues- the permanent mental decline is something That is not checked by an AME- and we all know what a joke some AMEs make it. Hell, I'm in great health and I still want the quickest in&out I can buy when it comes to my FAA medical-

The objective standards of check rides are actual real challenges- the FAA medical is not and does not test for mental decline.

As for the FO being negligent... I agree, but who is he reporting to?
A chief pilot who is in many cases part of the older seniority group who has had a relationship with that captain for years. Never mind the factthat you are charging a subordinate with evaluating the mental abilities of a superior that will be very defensive if challenged on it-

We can get into that inappropriate game + add cognitive ability tests that most of us will pay to get around, or we could just treat the flight deck as we have for decades: no captain older than 60- and align the FO position with the FE position-

Ie: you don't get kicked to the curb- you still earn a paycheck and benefits and have a great purpose and comradery in life- bid fantastic senior schedules in however many years you have left desiring to do this- and a much more natural leadership role where this captain is charged with evaluating the FO.

Occam's razor- my solution is much less of a pandoras box -

 

[waveflyer]

And yip- I don't think you should be a captain part 135 either.
And as for your suggestion- I find it very selfish that you guys had a career relatively AmE probe free, but now want all pilots to have a bunch more hoops to jump through bc you want to hold onto that captain seat.

 

[pilotyip]

And yip- I don't think you should be a captain part 135 either.

Then I guess it is really a good thing I don't work for you. I also guess you don't like the ACT of 29 either as a test of intelligence to apply to all ages of pilots?

You don't want real testing uniformly applied that might eliminate pilots as young as 55. All of this is pure "Get out of my seat",

BTW: A medical from an AME for a healthy guy is simply a check of your handwriting ability as you sign the credit card receipt. I rely upon my regular physician who gives me real exam to determine the status of my health.

We can get into that inappropriate game + add cognitive ability tests that most of us will pay to get around, or we could just treat the flight deck as we have for decades: no captain older than 60- and align the FO position with the FE position-

Ie: you don't get kicked to the curb- you still earn a paycheck and benefits and have a great purpose and comradery in life- bid fantastic senior schedules in however many years you have left desiring to do this- and a much more natural leadership role where this captain is charged with evaluating the FO.

Well put, pure "Get out of my seat", I have to admitt you are uniform in your attempt to get those guys out of your seat.

 

[fob727]

And yip- I don't think you should be a captain part 135 either.
And as for your suggestion- I find it very selfish that you guys had a career relatively AmE probe free, but now want all pilots to have a bunch more hoops to jump through bc you want to hold onto that captain seat.

Same shi**y argument...again. Give me a break!
WF...you need to find a hobby or something and stay off this board for a while.

 

[cldsfr79]

BringUpTheBird and Yip will not answer this.

Assuming you aren't burnt or just ready to pack it in- you love flying, love the job- Would you be able to objectively evaluate your own abilities as you age?

Now, throw in some money pressures....

No they wont be able to determine their own fitness. Just look at the 135/91K/91 world.

Once the "retired" pilot is "pushed" from the flight deck, they just head on over to the 135 world. And guess what? They do fly til they die, because it's happening where I work. That's how you move up the seniority list in the 135 world. I look at some of our older guys, see that some are a little red in the face (blood pressure), have watery eyes (glaucoma), walk with a slight limp (back problems), count their liver spots on their hand, and wonder (as mean as it is) when will it be their time? Because again, it's the only way to upgrade, get better schedules, and fly better planes, if they....leave....

And about the money pressures? Yes some are 65 with teenagers and a third wife, so they have to fly until the wife collects the death check, but most do have their ducks in line. I've flown with guys that have told me they can draw more money from their 401k, military pension, and airline pension than they are making now. It's just fun for them to score more cash (no greed here).

And of course when they leave the airlines with their 30 thousand+ flight hours and 29 out of 30 years as a PIC, they get first pick at all the jobs. Flight time looks great on paper. I've never had a mail order bride, but I'm sure she looks good on paper too until she shows up!

So the younger guy gets squeezed out of a job again and gets to sit right seat.....forever. I guess they have to earn their keep as they will be told by their astute grey haired leader.

GOOD LUCK IF FLY TIL YOU DIE COMES TO PART 121!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cldsfr79]

Why don't you think I'd answer? The question has no validity since every other measure a pilot must meet is objective and evaluated by another party. For cognitiv ability that should be under the purview of the AME. For performance it should be under the check airman and/or FAA inspector.

I really miss the 121 world. When you actually have to be a professional at your job and that you are accountable for knowledge and skill.

In the 135-fly-til-you-die world, we don't have this hierarchy of protection.

Yes we have chief pilots, check airman, instructors, and the FAA but it's different. Many organizations are small so everyone is buddy-buddy. A lot of the time the senior guys, who need to move on, are buddy-buddy with the instructors and they pass because their friends. Why can I say this, because I'm not buddies with the instructors, I get talked to if I make the wrong call out, but the "cowboy" or old-buddy friend gets an A+ even though he shouldn't have passed (not flying to ATP standards or not following company procedures). You don't want to bust your hunting pal right? Or in the sim, even during a check, an older guy can ball up a plane multiple times on a V1 cut or zig-zag off a localizer but is given multiple chance to pass. They finally get it right and get a stamp of approval, hope they get it right the first time on the line. Yes this happens, it's a fact. And don't get me started about the 73 year old captain that had signs of dementia, literally did not have the skills to even be a pilot anymore and kept getting passed through. Also true.

Just look at the accident/incident and even the violation rate of 135 vs. 121. Enough said.

 

[waveflyer]

So Yip,
Notice you still haven't answered the original question? Seriously, why would it be appropriate to fly well into old age, when we are largely responsible for ourselves, and the loudest proponents of an age increase or abolition cannot answer truthfully that they will not be able to OBJECTIVELY evaluate their own permanent mental decline.
Hell yip, you don't acknowledge mental decline exists at all.

No, yip, I actually am not scared of higher objective standards- I'm saying we've all jumped through enough hoops to be where we are, and another expensive set of tests will neither be effective or administered well by the FAA. I have lobbied for years for higher academics- if I can figure out how to make a $million, I'm certainly not worried about what the FAA can throw at me. (how's that for a hobby, flamethrower above?)
Maybe it's a good idea, but it's a be careful what you wish for thing-
We have decades of stats that the vast majority of us are sharp and safe captains up to age 60- let that be the benchmark instead of giving more power to the FAA's medical department. What I'm saying is that I do believe we can safely fly for years after 60- (we agree) but we ought not be the one in command as we age bc we do need objective pilots evaluating our skills and mind as we get older. You can't do that for yourself, I'm sorry - we're all human and none of us are good at that.
It boggles the mind that you guys are asking for a more probing beauracracy - but then again, it doesn't- you have nothing to lose.

 

[Jar Jar]

I agree. No captains over 60. Ever. No cessna drivers over 60 either, they kill people too much.

 

[SSDD]

The honest answer is: I don't know. I used to say I'd be retired by 50, 55 tops. Well I'll be 56 this year and still enjoying the hell out of it.

I'ts all about balance. I've never hated the job like some guys seem to. I can spend time with the kids and grandkids, ride my bike, and sail my boat.

Will I still feel this way in 5 yrs? Eight yrs? 10? I don't know. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[get2flyin]

The honest answer is: I don't know. I used to say I'd be retired by 50, 55 tops. Well I'll be 56 this year and still enjoying the hell out of it.

I'ts all about balance. I've never hated the job like some guys seem to. I can spend time with the kids and grandkids, ride my bike, and sail my boat.

Will I still feel this way in 5 yrs? Eight yrs? 10? I don't know. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Flew with a CA a few years ago who just slipped under the wire and was able to stay until 65. Minutes after telling him I was 3 months away from furlough (and expecting my first child at the same time), he started telling me how great it was that he got to work until he was 65 because he'd have an extra nearly 500K that he and wifey were now going to use to buy that second dream house in the mountains. And, hey...he was picking up every bit of open time he could lay his hands on, working company max of 99 hours a month. He said he LOVED his job so why should he HAVE to "get fired for turning 60"? I told him, "Of course you love your job. Thanks to retirements, you've advanced your way up near the top of the heap and now you get summer vacations, the all the overnights you like, and the days off you want. THAT'S why you love your job...and it's all been thanks to advancement from retirement based attrition". Of course he disagreed. "Well", I told him, "enjoy it...I'll be trying to find a job in Asia or in the Middle East...you know...first kid on the way". He said, "I'm sure you'll be fine. Probably be back on the property in less than 5 years..oh, right over there by that mountain is where we want to build our second house." I hate that F-ing guy for a host of reasons, but that certainly is the biggest.

On the other side of the coin, I just flew with a 62.5 year old who's punching out this summer. Wife died 8 years ago. He wanted to bail at 60 but now says he finally has enough money. Sold his big house, moved into a 1400 sq/ft trailer until he can find a 28' motorhome to tow the Jeep he just bought. This guy has figured out you can spend your golden years fighting TSA and working for the man or hiking the Western United States...and he has priorities right. He can't wait...he lit up while he was telling me about it.

I don't know you from Adam so I'm not comparing to you to either one of these guys, SSDD. I'm glad you like your job. I've spent most of my career throwing gear and it's still been the best job in the planet. It just rubs me the wrong way when a guy who is senior (which you may or may not be) talks about how they want to stay because the job is so great now that everyone in front of them is gone. The salt in the wound is how THEY should be able to stay on that perch for a few extra years and anyone who thinks differently is "greedy" and just wants to "steal their seat".

 

[flyboyike]

It just rubs me the wrong way when a guy who is senior (which you may or may not be) talks about how they want to stay because the job is so great now that everyone in front of them is gone. The salt in the wound is how THEY should be able to stay on that perch for a few extra years and anyone who thinks differently is "greedy" and just wants to "steal their seat".

Amen.

 

[SSDD]

I gave you an honest answer. Please notice that I still have 5 yrs till I turn 60, and I haven't made my decision yet.

So where do you draw the line? At some point everyone in front of you will be gone and you'll have to make that decision yourself. Will you be ready to step away at 50, 55, 60, 62.5? Or will you say, way back then some greedy bastards robbed me of five years, so I have to stay?

Again, the answer is that regardless of what you tell yourself right now, you probably won't know until you get there. Maybe you'll still love the job, maybe not. Maybe you'll be financially set, maybe not. Maybe(and I hope not) a medical condition will come up, and the whole question will be moot.

 

[TMMT]

No they wont be able to determine their own fitness. Just look at the 135/91K/91 world.

Once the "retired" pilot is "pushed" from the flight deck, they just head on over to the 135 world. And guess what? They do fly til they die, because it's happening where I work.

Its two fold, one the economy keeps many flying well past the point most people want to retire.

Second is medical science, today has the ability to sustain you longer.

Mostly gone are the days of slow but noticeable declining health starting around age 55 to 60 and ending 5, 10 or 15 years later with death.

Today, those who get regular physicals and go to the doctor at the first sign of health related issues, tend to live longer and a more sustained life. Right up till the point their body just gives out, rapidly and completely.

25 years from now the age will be 85 to 90... 25 more years and those alive will all be discussing the merits of working at age 90 to 100.

Who knows what medical science will hold, perhaps the day they can stimulate brain cells to completely regenerate. Applied to huge leaps in artificial organs and bionics... a human will be able to live as long as they want to.

And this argument will be a bunch of Space Freighter pilots arguing over those flying well in to their 200's... keeping the younger one out of jobs.

 

[TMMT]

The honest answer is: I don't know. I used to say I'd be retired by 50, 55 tops. Well I'll be 56 this year and still enjoying the hell out of it.

I'ts all about balance. I've never hated the job like some guys seem to. I can spend time with the kids and grandkids, ride my bike, and sail my boat.

Will I still feel this way in 5 yrs? Eight yrs? 10? I don't know. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I've never understood that either, perhaps its a 121 thing... but having only flown 135/91 I can't say.

Closest I've ever come to a 121 job was turning down a job offer from American in 1996 to go fly a Challenger on the west coast.

 

[pilotyip]

I agree. No captains over 60. Ever. No cessna drivers over 60 either, they kill people too much.

Right and no one under 60 ever kills anyone in an airplane

 

[waveflyer]

Yip, either you purposely repeat that logical fallacy, or you don't know you are committing it.

Again, you love flying- as do I, will you know when you are no longer safe to fly? Or will you a few close calls before you accept it?

 

[Dan Roman]

Yip, either you purposely repeat that logical fallacy, or you don't know you are committing it.

Again, you love flying- as do I, will you know when you are no longer safe to fly? Or will you a few close calls before you accept it?

Well wave you said your 27 on here. Simple fact is, and no offense intended, but Yip is much more qualified to make a judgement about flying skills as you age. He's been there, you haven't!

 

[waveflyer]

27??

Your grammar's as good as a pilot- are you saying my age is 27?

Good one-

 

[Leroy Smith]

A man's got to know his limitations.

Some will, some wont.
Old, or sick or tired or frazzled or skills just not up to the task at hand.
Sometimes the line is very fine, and everyone will choose wrong sometimes. No age limit, regulation or test will ever be a proper replacement for self awareness and common-sense, but they are imperfect necessities for those who lack either....

 

[pilotyip]

Yip, either you purposely repeat that logical fallacy, or you don't know you are committing it.

Again, you love flying- as do I, will you know when you are no longer safe to fly? Or will you a few close calls before you accept it?

You mean like the close calls I had in my 20's, improper aileron roll resulting in a split "S" and losing 3,500' when I started at 5,000', improper aborted take-off by the PPC resulting in the airplane turning into a ball of fire when the wing broke, getting lost in the North Atlantic when my Navigator lost it, the windshere at Malta where I was looking up at the runway on the cliff above me (in 1970 we had not yet discovered the wonders o0f windshere, or when I stepped out the cockpit to use the head and returned to the cockpit to find my F/O in a 45 degree bank going through 1,000' at 3,000'/min with two engines in the bag. Those kind of close calls. Maybe because I experienced these in my 20's I will stay away from them in my 60's and 70's

Well wave you said your 27 on here. Simple fact is, and no offense intended, but Yip is much more qualified to make a judgement about flying skills as you age. He's been there, you haven't!

Thanks Dan, you notice how a lib always makes it personal?

 

[flyboyike]

Thanks Dan, you notice how a lib always makes it personal?

Well, I'm not a lib, but the gummers sticking around has affected me personally. I personally lost income and career advancement. Now, do I care if you, yip, personally, live, breathe, fly or die? No, not one bit. But this hosejob has affected me very personally, thus I take it personally.