SWA Side Letter.

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

I suspect the language states that SWA doesn't whore-out it's flying. Who gives a crapola what size bird it is...

It's the fact there is language in their contract which PROHIBITS that activity. THAT is what matters. And it's what protects a SWAPA job!

Just my opinion...

Actually it does allow RJ's (or codeshare with commuter type A/C) but only in Inter-island Hawaii flying AND From Island to Island within the Caribbean.

Not sure if that was changed in SL12 we are voting on now? (can't find it and apparently I have lost my negotiating notes that SWAPA let me borrow! ;(

Good Luck,
KBB

 

[scoreboardII]

I think the only unfortunate and glaringly unreasonable comment in that letter is stating "feeling somewhat less than full Southwest pilots". Well guess who hasn't felt like full SWA pilots either since the CEO dumped organic growth? Welcome to SWA guys, it's just business.

 

[scoreboardII]

QUOTE]In negotiations there was NO stated possibility of early retirement of the 717, that's zero, nada, nothing, zilch. We discussed that possibility in private discussions, brought it up in negotiations (which primarily was with SWA management, not SWAPA), and were repeatedly assured that the airplane wasn't going anywhere as long as we ratified SIA 2.

The saving grace is it's impossible for SWA to dump the 717's by 2015, so you have that going for you. SWA can't loose the lift, SWA can't train you guys fast enough on the 737, SWA can't get enough 737's.

 

[humveedriver]

Well guess who hasn't felt like full SWA pilots either since the CEO dumped organic growth? Welcome to SWA guys, it's just business.

That's how we feel. You can have your union president write your own letter. The more harm that transpires to the AT group, the better it is for your group. I got that part. If and when this happens it resets the "moving forward" clock for our side to zero. Nothing to do but wait and see.

-BTW notice that no AT pilot posted the memo. We still have hope that SWA is an employee first airline. And we are wholly owned employees now.

 

[fam62c]

There's no reason to start arguing about something that hasn't happened yet and may not happen. The fact that they deferred -800's seems to me to make it very likely that they do not have a way out of the 717 leases. I have to think that if there was a deal out there it would have already been done.

 

[humveedriver]

I have to think that if there was a deal out there it would have already been done.

I think it is done my friend. Bracing for impact.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

I think it is done my friend. Bracing for impact.

Just got the official e-mail, Anyone got the number to that truck driving school?

KBB

 

[SWA Bubba]

Actually it does allow RJ's (or codeshare with commuter type A/C) but only in Inter-island Hawaii flying AND From Island to Island within the Caribbean.

Not sure if that was changed in SL12 we are voting on now? (can't find it and apparently I have lost my negotiating notes that SWAPA let me borrow! ;(

Good Luck,
KBB

You are right about the 'old' language vs. proposed SL-12 language. The current CBA allows codeshare (to allowable ASMs) on RJs ONLY between Hawaiian islands or between Caribbean islands. The new language in SL-12 strengthens our scope by prohibiting ALL codeshare with ANY company other than Volaris (the only existing contract), and that's to a reduced ASM total. Volaris does not fly RJs, only Airbusses. Even if they did alter their business model to include RJs in the future, they cannot use them on codeshare flights. That's because the proposed new language only replaces the 'near-international codeshare' paragraph (1.F.4.) The preceding paragraph (1.F.3.) remains, and that's the one that limits RJ codesharing to flying that Volaris isn't allowed to do anyway. The restrictions on the two paragraphs together prohibit ANY codesharing with an RJ.

Hope this helps.

Bubba

 

[scoreboardII]

The saving grace is it's impossible for SWA to dump the 717's by 2015, so you have that going for you. SWA can't loose the lift, SWA can't train you guys fast enough on the 737, SWA can't get enough 737's.

I've been wrong before:

And....the 717s are GONE!

Message from Mike Van de Ven:

Southwest confirmed today that we, together with AirTran, have reached a tentative agreement with Delta Air Lines, Inc. and Boeing Capital Corp., to sublease all of AirTran’s 88 Boeing 717 aircraft. The final agreement is subject to Delta and Southwest reaching certain agreements with all parties related to the aircraft leases. Final details must be completed with all parties before a binding agreement between Delta and Southwest can be completed.

I know that speculation without information creates anxieties; especially in times when the pace of change is accelerated. Your professionalism during this period, particularly among the 717 Pilot, Flight Attendant, and Maintenance groups is both honorable and appreciated. At this point, we are able to share a bit more information with you. First, the aircraft transitions to Delta don’t start for another year. The tentative agreement between Southwest and Delta would transition the 717s over three years starting in the second half of 2013 at an anticipated rate of three aircraft a month.

While the 717 is an excellent aircraft, it is in the best interests of Southwest Airlines (and therefore our People’s collective best interest) to transition these aircraft from our fleet before the end of their current lease terms. Our intent is to manage a relatively flat fleet as the 717s transition out by substituting the needed lift with 737 aircraft. Those aircraft improve our scheduling and operational recovery flexibilities; they return us to a more simplified single fleet type; and they improve our economics as compared to the 717. It’s that simple.

Our plans to continue to integrate current AirTran Employees into the Southwest operation over the next several years are not changed by this tentative agreement. The Pilots will now transition directly from the 717s to the 737s, and the Flight Attendants and Maintenance personnel are currently trained on both fleets. I’m sure that many of you will have additional questions and we will have time to work through all those details before the first 717 leaves the fleet more than a year from now.

A transition of the 717s was an option that we acknowledged when we established our fleet plan with The Boeing Company. At that time, we did not have a willing customer for those airplanes, but built in flexibility in our fleet plan should the need to replace those aircraft come to fruition. We have great flexibility to match our future fleet needs with our financial performance. If we hit our return hurdles, we have the ability to grow the fleet. The more flexibility we have on where and when we fly our Southwest Airlines jets at favorable economics, the better opportunity we have to achieve that goal.

An all-737 Southwest fleet with the addition of the ETOPS equipped 737-800 expands our network opportunities. It allows us to consider places like San Juan, Hawaii, Alaska, and near international markets to continue growing both our network and our profits. Flexibility to allocate the fleet to the right destinations and opportunities, wherever they are, allows us to pursue new Customers. It also allows us to redeploy flying from unprofitable routes, as we have done now for several years. The greater our flexibility, the more opportunities we have to pursue profitable flying. That provides job security for our People. It’s smart, and it’s just that simple.

Again, the tentative agreement to sublease the 717s and return to an all-737 fleet improves our network flexibility. The final pieces of that flexibility are the technology investments underway and the labor agreements that are still needed. It’s our Southwest, and we want to get into a game that takes us beyond the lower 48 states. That’s good for our Company, good for our People, and good for our Customers and Shareholders.

Thank you for your Warrior Spirit!​

 

[CptMurf]

Correct.

At the road shows, the question was asked whether the plan was for the 717's to go away early. The response from Southwest management representatives was the same as during negotiations, that by accepting the lower pay until 1/1/15, it had made the financials of the aircraft acceptable for them to remain through at least the end of the integration, and likely to their lease expiration.

In the SIA documents there is no reference anywhere to the 717's going away early except in Side Letter 10 (which by Process Agreement we had no say in), with one small blurb as follows:



In combination with the rest of Side Letter 10's restrictions, the early elimination of the 717 would take every last AirTran Captain and make them an F/O, due to the clause that no AirTran pilot will be allowed to hold 737 CA until 1/1/15.

In negotiations there was NO stated possibility of early retirement of the 717, that's zero, nada, nothing, zilch. We discussed that possibility in private discussions, brought it up in negotiations (which primarily was with SWA management, not SWAPA), and were repeatedly assured that the airplane wasn't going anywhere as long as we ratified SIA 2.

May or may not make a difference; it all depends on what happens with the 717's...

Well, they're not quite gone by 2015, but this will become one slippery slope. Is there a possibility of the fragmentation policy kicking in and protecting some of the CA positions? By PCL 128's vague overview in another thread, there might be a possibility. The SWAPA and SWA announcements state that there will be jobs for those pilots at SWA without the possibility of furlough, but doesn't address the possibility that some pilots may be able to transfer to DAL. I doubt it will be brought up by DAL or DALPA till the TA is agreed upon (or ever), so what is the position of AirTran ALPA?

 

[fam62c]

There's no reason to start arguing about something that hasn't happened yet and may not happen. The fact that they deferred -800's seems to me to make it very likely that they do not have a way out of the 717 leases. I have to think that if there was a deal out there it would have already been done.

I was sure wrong on that call. This will be a morale killer at AT, those guys can't take much more LUV.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm sure you know that I'll have opinions on what this is- and how air tran pilots and representatives react. But I do want to say openly how much I do respect the job that Air Tran pilots have done through the turmoil. I echo MVdV's statement that the professionalism of every 717 pilot I've met is admirable and all appear to be great guys-
Can't wait to provide you some stability and certainty

 

[Lear70]

Well, they're not quite gone by 2015, but this will become one slippery slope. Is there a possibility of the fragmentation policy kicking in and protecting some of the CA positions? By PCL 128's vague overview in another thread, there might be a possibility.

PCL was vague because statements have a way of coming back to bite you in litigation... I have to be vague for the same reason, even though I'm not on the NC anymore (transferred to Contract Compliance).

I don't mind stating facts that happened during negotiations, and as I've said before, the word "Sublease" might be problematic, but we'll see what the attorneys say, since I'm not attorney and didn't even stay at a HI Express last night.

The SWAPA and SWA announcements state that there will be jobs for those pilots at SWA without the possibility of furlough, but doesn't address the possibility that some pilots may be able to transfer to DAL. I doubt it will be brought up by DAL or DALPA till the TA is agreed upon (or ever), so what is the position of AirTran ALPA?

Well, from our MEC Chair's communique' of yesterday, it appears that the position of ALPA is that this changes the basis of the entire SIA. From the communique' from SWA management today, they don't see it the same way, stating that they believe this was "thoroughly discussed" during the SIA negotiations.

As I've said before, I don't disagree that it was discussed, but I disagree that anything was mentioned about the 717's going away. Quite the contrary, everything they focused on was the 717 CA seats and base options (TPA). It was one of the key selling points of the SIA, which SWA management officials attended and answered questions about.

We will see what happens... If a DAL employment option presented itself, it would probably go senior, depending on the terms and conditions. However, anything except starting over at the bottom of the DAL seniority list would have to be negotiated and voted on by both pilot groups, so that lessens the likelihood that it will be an option.

If you look at flat growth numbers (no more Classics retiring plus the existing -700/-800 delivery schedule) through 2013 and 2014 and the return of the deferred aircraft deliveries in 2015, there's positions for everyone without furloughs or anyone going to DAL, although the flying would get diluted a bit here and there during the transition.

As such, and without a magic 8-ball, I'd say the odds are that no pilots go to DAL, nothing gets done to alter the SIA, including pay or CA seats. Not my preference, of course, but not being involved in negotiations anymore nor privy to front-room conversations since the changeover in ALPA leadership, that's my educated guess.

 

[Lear70]

And I'm not going to comment on AAI morale, because it's a divisive conversation.

I recognize that this isn't some kind of "home run" for SWA pilots, either, seeing as growth will be flat for several years to come, stagnated upgrades, etc. It obviously hurts our 717 Captains who can't hold CA per their seniority, but to quibble about who got hurt "more" (which is where this kind of conversation would go) doesn't really help us come together.

I will say that it certainly doesn't help things any, and a previous posters' response of "resetting the healing time" back to zero is spot-on. I'm kind of surprised our internal board hasn't been shut down yet. Would be interesting to sit in Ops today in ATL...

 

[scoreboardII]

I'll just add from this side of the fence we are as shocked as you with how poorly this is being executed. Buying jets your giving away at fire sale pricing to a competitor? Let alone the breach of trust on both sides of the isle. This is not the SWA we were hired at to be a part of a family, we have become a means to an ROI statement.

 

[PCL_128]

scoreboard, thank you for that. It's nice to hear someone on the other side of the "partition" recognize it.

 

[scoreboardII]

The only glimmer of hope from this fiasco is every airline pilot group now knows NEVER to trust SWA. Including SWAPA.

 

[Dan Roman]

Unfortunately, we all live in glass houses.

 

[Dan Roman]

I'm sure you know that I'll have opinions on what this is- and how air tran pilots and representatives react. But I do want to say openly how much I do respect the job that Air Tran pilots have done through the turmoil. I echo MVdV's statement that the professionalism of every 717 pilot I've met is admirable and all appear to be great guys-
Can't wait to provide you some stability and certainty

The only way you can truly show respect is if you treat them as equals in a merger. Any posturing to gain seniority in a SLI pretty much wipes out any semblance of treating each other with respect.
Unfortunately, "Gary" didn't really treat the AirTran guys with a whole lot of respect. They didn't get to keep what they brought to the table.
"Warrior spirit" I guess.

 

[ASADFW7]

Dan, treating people with respect and negotiating value in public are connected, however they do not translate into being the same thing for both sides. The personal attachments to ones value in a marketplace to respect can end up in a position of disappointment. Just look at the SWA guys, in many people eyes they are doing well, however internally there are hundreds of guys who are pissed off. How is that? How have they been disrespected they are still SWA pilots? When you introduce a second pilot group into that, you have another group with the percentage of pissed off pilots. What do you believe, they voice of a pissed off pilot or the absense of statements from those who are satisfied and happy that do not exist in the same numbers publicy? It is hard to gauge from the interaction with those who speak the loudest, they are not always the fair representation of the result or process.