AA/US Airways merger and impact to their regionals...

[AcarsMe]

So does anyone here have any thoughts/speculations/rumors about what would happen to Piedmont, PSA, and Eagle if/when this merger goes forward?

 

[paddlehigh]

who cares.

 

[ackattacker]

I don't know how it will go, but I wouldn't expect good news.

 

[bikeguy]

who cares.

Tool....Go F@@K yourself....

 

[ackattacker]

From the APA term sheet looks like a major relaxing of scope. Up to 255 88 seaters, jet and turboprop lumped together.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Tool....Go F@@K yourself....

He is a psa pilot.

 

[8sugarsugar]

you'll see scope shift 737's to PSA/Eagle to replace legacy retirements with regional wages.....big hiring boom we all waited for, except not exactly what we expected

 

[paddlehigh]

He is a psa pilot.

That I am and I still don't care.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

So does anyone here have any thoughts/speculations/rumors about what would happen to Piedmont, PSA, and Eagle if/when this merger goes forward?

Yep. Smash it all together as one giant corn-studded turd, IPO it and hope for the best.

 

[BentOver]

AA/USAir may have solved their retirement/pilot shortage...If AA gets what they want some regionals will grow. There will be less mainline jobs..

In the end, everytime one of these majors goes bankrupt, the 121 industry gets dragged down. Pilot pay at AA will be cut, scope will givin up, regionals will grow and the future for pilots will suck more.

The legacies have found their way around scope. Go bankrupt....

Soon, regionals will be flying 717, 737 style a/c for half the pay of a legacy..It'll take just a few more bankruptcies...

I predict AA will slash their costs so much that there will be other majors who will cry poor due to not being able to compete will AA..In turn contracts will be gutted in one way or another

 

[8sugarsugar]

there is just no way the legacies will replace retirements with legacy wages.

Interesting to see what will happen to SWA when the "new AMR/US air" has PSA and Air wis operating 737's and paying FO's 27,0000/year starting

5-10 years

Don't believe scope will get broken? The old retirement age guys will do whatever to serve themselves. they don't care about the young guys, they just care about their pensions.

 

[ex j-41]

There is nothing wrong with regionals flying 737's or larger. As long as the wages are comparable to other airlines. Southwest may be out of reach but spirit/allegiant/.... Might not be.

 

[Jetjockey]

there is just no way the legacies will replace retirements with legacy wages.

Interesting to see what will happen to SWA when the "new AMR/US air" has PSA and Air wis operating 737's and paying FO's 27,0000/year starting

5-10 years

Don't believe scope will get broken? The old retirement age guys will do whatever to serve themselves. they don't care about the young guys, they just care about their pensions.

Someone is living in alternate reality. Good luck with that prediction. If you were willing to fly a 737 for regional wages, you are a bigger fool than you portray here.

 

[Varmint]

Someone is living in alternate reality. Good luck with that prediction. If you were willing to fly a 737 for regional wages, you are a bigger fool than you portray here.

AHHH, you mean like getting hired and working for $25 or $30 an hour for the first year at a US Major and not making more than a regional captain for at least 3-5 years. I would call that flying a 737 for regional wages. Southwest and Delta are the only 2 airlines that come close to holding up the bar for the first few years of pay at US majors.

 

[ex j-41]

Or going to US Airways and getting stuck on the e190 and never making more than $55k.

 

[8sugarsugar]

Someone is living in alternate reality. Good luck with that prediction. If you were willing to fly a 737 for regional wages, you are a bigger fool than you portray here.

Check out RyanAir in Europe. 1st year FO's make $27,000, plus buy their own water on the plane and a "simulator recurrent fee" is taken out of their paycheck.

Would it get that bad in the states? doubtful as American pilots have balls, but Richard Anderson is foaming at the mouth.

 

[Jetjockey]

The Euro trash also have the MPL, so 300 hour wonders can sit in the right seat. Apples to Oranges my friend. You are basing your assumptions on past occurrences here in the states. Regional airlines have reached the high water mark and will decline in block hours flown. 50 seat regional jets are economically disadvantaged. Most scope clauses limit seats to 70. Mainline carriers are up-sizing equipment wherever possible. The paradigm is constantly shifting and your logic is based on post chapter 11 concessionary agreements.

Agreed the the starting pay at UAL, DAL are not stellar, but they pay doubles by year 3. The largest regional FO pay is terrible, and stays that way for 18-20 years. The only hope at a regional for a livable wage is to upgrade to captain. High attrition provides that movement.

To outwardly hope that regional airlines get future flying in larger equipment is severely short-sighted.

 

[8sugarsugar]

I don't hope regionals get larger equipment, just forecasting it. You bring up a good point with the 50 seat now economically disadvantaged. I view that as more of a reason for AMR to break scope and shift 737-800 size aircraft to the regional level.

Qantas, one of the most heavily unionized airlines in the world managed to do it with JetStar.

 

[Jetjockey]

I don't hope regionals get larger equipment, just forecasting it. You bring up a good point with the 50 seat now economically disadvantaged. I view that as more of a reason for AMR to break scope and shift 737-800 size aircraft to the regional level.

Qantas, one of the most heavily unionized airlines in the world managed to do it with JetStar.

You mean union busting. I'm not sure about Australian labor laws, but this country has protections against that. If you are not familiar with the 1113(c) portion of the US Bankruptcy courts, you will know that it is a major effort on the part of AA to abrogate portions of the C.B.A. I have been down that road twice in my career. It's not a walk in park for either party.

AA management has the hounds barking at the gate, (US Airways hostile bid takeover) and the government saying not so fast on dumping pension obligations onto the PBGC. Labor isn't rolling over with capitulating with the AA management "term sheet (aka Christmas wish list)". I don't see a bankruptcy judge setting a major precedence by over turning scope and jobs. The way I see it, AA management is getting the squeeze on more than one side. I'd say the pressure is on them.

We shall see how it al plays out. My money is on Doug Parker getting his wish, followed by another DUI. The real entertainment will be SLI, but that will be another 45 page thread to be played out later.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

Every time I get pissed about being furloughed at NetJets, wishing I was back at the airlines, I read post after post about the continued nose dive aviation and the airlines specifically have continued to take. Being a plumber now surely isn't pretty work, but making what a senior RJ captain makes, home every night, holidays off, off to see the kids grow up, no crashpad, no commute, yada yada yada!!

Good luck fellas...furloughed from a steaming pile like NJ doesn't seem so bad after all. thx!

 

[Varmint]

Every time I get pissed about being furloughed at NetJets, wishing I was back at the airlines, I read post after post about the continued nose dive aviation and the airlines specifically have continued to take. Being a plumber now surely isn't pretty work, but making what a senior RJ captain makes, home every night, holidays off, off to see the kids grow up, no crashpad, no commute, yada yada yada!!

Good luck fellas...furloughed from a steaming pile like NJ doesn't seem so bad after all. thx!

I like to lay some pipe now and again also.

 

[aussieflyboy]

The real entertainment will be SLI, but that will be another 45 page thread to be played out later.

45?? I'd wager closer to 450 pages.

 

[belchfire]

The AE pilots are going to kick and scream bloody murder about how "you stole our flying" just like they did during the transition from TWE to American Connection carriers...thing was that in their warped little tiny AMR minds it didn't matter that AE had never turned a damned wheel in STL-somehow they thought that was their flying-even though the parent company was supposed to be protecting the TWA jobs in STL!

Which turned out to be just and just another of AMR's lies...

And yeah, for my $2.00 they could have had their clapped out old Jballs back. In fact in the face of the new situation I think that all of the AE pilots should have their jobs protected.

Perhaps they should be fenced off in New Bern-there's what, four or five Dash 8 crews there? That's a reasonable survival rate for the Hitler Youth I think...

Yeah, Piedmont gets Dallas and Eagle can have New Bern!

 

[belchfire]

Check out RyanAir in Europe. 1st year FO's make $27,000, plus buy their own water on the plane and a "simulator recurrent fee" is taken out of their paycheck.

Would it get that bad in the states? doubtful as American pilots have balls, but Richard Anderson is foaming at the mouth.

There is an interesting bit you leave out-it is that bad in the states! No, you don't have to sit in the right seat of a 737 for $27K/yr in the states, it's worse...you can fly single pilot night IFR with no autopilot in a clapped out Baron or Aztec or Navaho or 402 for $17K/yr!!!

A lot of those guys in the foreign apprenticeships are so young that they are only having to shave two or three times a week-I've had a few beers with a couple of them. They are in apprenticeship programs and yeah, the first few years really suck. Kind of like the defunct check hauling gig except that these kids don't have the time to make the old 135 instrument minimums, they have 150-250 hours in a 172 and now they're going into a 737...

They are trained from day one to sit in the right seat of a 737 or whatever and they put in their dues rapidly and then start moving up.

If you think that what some foreign carriers are doing is inequitable in some way you just don't understand the whole situation...

 

[ex j-41]

My cousin went to a British Airways interview while he was working for Ryan Air. He didn't get the job. When asked why they said that British Airways tries hard to create a standard of pay for their pilots and Ryan Air makes that difficult. They said he seemed happy working for limited pay so he should stay there.

 

[LearLove]

There is an interesting bit you leave out-it is that bad in the states! No, you don't have to sit in the right seat of a 737 for $27K/yr in the states, it's worse...you can fly single pilot night IFR with no autopilot in a clapped out Baron or Aztec or Navaho or 402 for $17K/yr!!!

A lot of those guys in the foreign apprenticeships are so young that they are only having to shave two or three times a week-I've had a few beers with a couple of them. They are in apprenticeship programs and yeah, the first few years really suck. Kind of like the defunct check hauling gig except that these kids don't have the time to make the old 135 instrument minimums, they have 150-250 hours in a 172 and now they're going into a 737...

They are trained from day one to sit in the right seat of a 737 or whatever and they put in their dues rapidly and then start moving up.

If you think that what some foreign carriers are doing is inequitable in some way you just don't understand the whole situation...

While not always the case, I'd bank on the skills of the guy who flight instructed/traffic/pipe/banner for 2 year then flew 135 cargo/charter as pic for the next 2 then when to the commuters for the next 2 to 5 years before he/she got to 737 seat any day. Skills/judgement and exp. gained in these situations (and at these hours) will form a solid base for a professional pilot for the rest of his/her career.

However as we see these jobs (135 cargo especially) are getting fewer and far between.

 

[ASApuppy]

While not always the case, I'd bank on the skills of the guy who flight instructed/traffic/pipe/banner for 2 year then flew 135 cargo/charter as pic for the next 2 then when to the commuters for the next 2 to 5 years before he/she got to 737 seat any day. Skills/judgement and exp. gained in these situations (and at these hours) will form a solid base for a professional pilot for the rest of his/her career.

However as we see these jobs (135 cargo especially) are getting fewer and far between.

Agreed. I would like to see a reduction in Part 135 minimums before seeing a multi-crew license push. Personally, I think it would be ok to cut them in half. It would be safer to promote two pilot crews for IFR pax operations. This would help reopen the 135 cargo world and VFR pax. I except many small cities to lose their regional service in the next few years. A move like this would help fill in the gap.

 

[General Lee]

Looks like AMR is now exploring the merger option

What does Jon Rivoli think of this?



UPDATE 3-American Airlines to explore merger options


Fri May 11, 2012 6:16pm EDT


Byand Kyle Peterson

May 11 (Reuters) - AMR Corp, parent of American Airlines, bowed to pressure on Friday from its unsecured creditors, including its largest labor unions, and said it would explore merger options while it is still in bankruptcy.

AMR, which has been in Chapter 11 since November, had long said it intended to reorganize as a stand-alone carrier, shrugging off interest expressed by rival US Airways Group Inc .

The carrier, however, has faced mounting pressure from vocal members of its creditors committee who believe a better future for AMR can be secured by merging with US Airways.

In reversing its stance, AMR said it wanted to assure stakeholders that it would pursue the best possible outcome for the airline.

"To be clear, American has committed to work in collaboration with the (creditors) committee to develop only potential consolidation scenarios and this agreement does not in any way suggest that a transaction of any kind or with any particular party will be pursued," Beverly Goulet, AMR's chief restructuring officer, said in a statement.


A spokeswoman for US Airways declined to comment on AMR's revised stance. US Airways has been courting AMR creditors, especially disgruntled labor unions that say an AMR/US Airways tie-up would create a stronger carrier and save more jobs than AMR's stand-alone plan.
US Airways said in April that a merger with AMR would generate at least $1.2 billion a year in new value beyond the benefit that could be passed to employees of the combined carrier. AMR has said its stand-alone plan would generate $3 billion in new revenue and savings by 2017.


Chief Executive Tom Horton had said the airline was focused solely on its bankruptcy, calling those who would attempt to acquire the company in bankruptcy "opportunists." But he never ruled out taking a merger partner after bankruptcy.Other potential suitors also have considered a deal with AMR, including Delta Air Lines and private equity firm TPG Capital, sources have told Reuters.


Robert Mann, an airline consultant and former AMR executive, said AMR's new openness to mergers could flush out more potential partners.
"I think it was already headed there anyway," he said. "It's a recognition of the inevitable that there would be some sort of transaction."



CREDITOR REVOLT

American's three labor unions, which are part of AMR's nine-member creditor committee, have said a merger with US Airways would create a stronger airline and save more jobs than AMR's stand-alone plan. US Airways has not made a bid for AMR, which has a court-granted right to reorganize without intrusion by outsiders. That right extends to September.

Unions representing pilots and flight attendants at American Airlines on Friday again denounced the company's stand-alone business plan, calling on the managers to explore merger options with rival US Airways.
The workers staged rallies in New York and Fort Worth, Texas, where AMR is based, to declare "no confidence" in the company's ability to produce a viable business plan.

The protests came as the two sides prepared to spar in court on Monday over AMR's request to void the labor contracts it has with the unions. The airline and its unions are on a two-week hiatus from their court battle over that request.

"US Airways management's plans for merging the two carriers call for preserving and enhancing the American Airlines brand, retaining our Fort Worth home and saving thousands of jobs that will be eliminated under AMR management's stand-alone plan," David Bates, president of the Allied Pilots Association (APA), said in a statement.
The airline, which has about 74,000 full-time and part-time workers, has said it must cut 13,000 union jobs.


The carrier won steep concessions from labor in 2003 as it dodged bankruptcy at the time. AMR had been locked in fruitless labor talks with unions for years before filing for bankruptcy.
The APA, which has been negotiating with management this week, has yet to reach a deal. The Association of Professional Flight Attendants also said it has had talks with management.

Meanwhile, the Transport Workers Union, which represents 26,000 ground workers, dispatchers and other groups, is voting on AMR contract proposals for its seven work groups.

The deals do not have the endorsement of union leaders, but if they are ratified, they would cut the number of TWU-represented jobs targeted for elimination to 6,400. That compares with 9,000 jobs AMR said it would cut if it voids the worker's current deal and imposes new terms.
AMR's bankruptcy is In re AMR



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[414Flyer]

So does anyone here have any thoughts/speculations/rumors about what would happen to Piedmont, PSA, and Eagle if/when this merger goes forward?

The Shorts 360s will be brought back.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

What does Jon Rivoli think of this?

Not much. Every bankruptcy is different, as is the outcome.

American's three labor unions, which are part of AMR's nine-member creditor committee, have said a merger with US Airways would create a stronger airline and save more jobs than AMR's stand-alone plan. US Airways has not made a bid for AMR, which has a court-granted right to reorganize without intrusion by outsiders. That right extends to September.


The protests came as the two sides prepared to spar in court on Monday over AMR's request to void the labor contracts it has with the unions.

"US Airways management's plans for merging the two carriers call for preserving and enhancing the American Airlines brand, retaining our Fort Worth home and saving thousands of jobs that will be eliminated under AMR management's stand-alone plan," David Bates, president of the Allied Pilots Association (APA), said in a statement.
The airline, which has about 74,000 full-time and part-time workers, has said it must cut 13,000 union jobs.

Arpy tried for ten years to make that work and now Parker thinks he can just take over the operation and all will be fine? More likely he wants the American brand and will tell the unions what ever they want to hear in order to gain their support. Once the merger is completed, reality will strike and the pain will begin.

The Unions are doing their job, trying to protect the jobs of their members. Option A means 13,000 cuts; Option B appears to mean half as many so clearly the unions in favor of that, whether or not it is actually viable.

A point that I have previously made is the problem of SLI between the three pilot groups. How much of the supposed synergies from integration go away if the operation must be kept separate for an indefinite period.

Until we change course economically and make a return to prosperity our goal, we will all remain like wolves fighting over scraps. Two things will help us all; economic growth and increased domestic energy production. If we do that there will be plenty for all.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Bye Bye