XJET (ASA) New Hire class in April

[Clutch]

Under your current contract?

Yes.. For the first 6 months of the current contract.

 

[Nevets]

Yes.. For the first 6 months of the current contract.

Must be a perspective thing.

 

[Clutch]

Must be a perspective thing.

Nope.. That's how long it took management to use the weak contract language to screw us.

But that first 6 months, our contract was the tits!

 

[Leroy Smith]

I dont think the folks from EWR/IAH/CLE/ORD can understand the dynamic. The contract was pretty solid and offered HUGE improvements over what we had. The change in the flying that we do - I would guess that on the CR2 we used to average close to 2hrs per leg, now it barely breaks 1hr per leg- has decimated our QOL. To have decent credit, we are flying 16 leg 3 days or 20-24 leg 4 days. Combine with the cost cutting of a management looking for "efficiencies" and the sched from Delta - full of operational holes that get plugged with airport appreciation, 3 hr plane swaps at outstations and RR overnights, and you have a steaming pile. Not the contract causing MOST of the problems. Your contract might improve some things, our last contract certainly did - vast improvement. Example - CDOs used to pretty much suck - there were some vampires who liked them, but it generally went way junior - the first step off reserve. The current contract made them hugely popular - the credit they were worth with the sched one could get - awesome. After a while the company realized that the nappers were making out like bandits, and now they are pretty much gone- a few remain for the lucky few who can hold them.

The Point- our contract was premised on the conditions we were flying in at the time it was negotiated- in that regard it was an resounding success. Our PBS system would be providing us with puppies and unicorns if we were still working the same pool of flights we had even 2 years ago, let alone 5... Do not assume that the underlying assumptions about your operation will stay the same.

 

[777forever]

I dont think the folks from EWR/IAH/CLE/ORD can understand the dynamic. The contract was pretty solid and offered HUGE improvements over what we had. The change in the flying that we do - I would guess that on the CR2 we used to average close to 2hrs per leg, now it barely breaks 1hr per leg- has decimated our QOL. To have decent credit, we are flying 16 leg 3 days or 20-24 leg 4 days. Combine with the cost cutting of a management looking for "efficiencies" and the sched from Delta - full of operational holes that get plugged with airport appreciation, 3 hr plane swaps at outstations and RR overnights, and you have a steaming pile. Not the contract causing MOST of the problems. Your contract might improve some things, our last contract certainly did - vast improvement. Example - CDOs used to pretty much suck - there were some vampires who liked them, but it generally went way junior - the first step off reserve. The current contract made them hugely popular - the credit they were worth with the sched one could get - awesome. After a while the company realized that the nappers were making out like bandits, and now they are pretty much gone- a few remain for the lucky few who can hold them.

The Point- our contract was premised on the conditions we were flying in at the time it was negotiated- in that regard it was an resounding success. Our PBS system would be providing us with puppies and unicorns if we were still working the same pool of flights we had even 2 years ago, let alone 5... Do not assume that the underlying assumptions about your operation will stay the same.

Very well said sir. The reduction of stage length has been the main culprit of the reduction of QOL. Even management is struggling because now they are getting paid a nice rate reset while getting significantly increased maintenance costs due to higher cycles being put on the 200. The plane was not built for 7 leg days

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[Nevets]

I dont think the folks from EWR/IAH/CLE/ORD can understand the dynamic. The contract was pretty solid and offered HUGE improvements over what we had. The change in the flying that we do - I would guess that on the CR2 we used to average close to 2hrs per leg, now it barely breaks 1hr per leg- has decimated our QOL. To have decent credit, we are flying 16 leg 3 days or 20-24 leg 4 days. Combine with the cost cutting of a management looking for "efficiencies" and the sched from Delta - full of operational holes that get plugged with airport appreciation, 3 hr plane swaps at outstations and RR overnights, and you have a steaming pile. Not the contract causing MOST of the problems. Your contract might improve some things, our last contract certainly did - vast improvement. Example - CDOs used to pretty much suck - there were some vampires who liked them, but it generally went way junior - the first step off reserve. The current contract made them hugely popular - the credit they were worth with the sched one could get - awesome. After a while the company realized that the nappers were making out like bandits, and now they are pretty much gone- a few remain for the lucky few who can hold them.

The Point- our contract was premised on the conditions we were flying in at the time it was negotiated- in that regard it was an resounding success. Our PBS system would be providing us with puppies and unicorns if we were still working the same pool of flights we had even 2 years ago, let alone 5... Do not assume that the underlying assumptions about your operation will stay the same.

Same thing has happened to the CRJ ever since Skywest started operating their 700s in IAH. Yet we continue to benefit from pur contract despite management's attempt at cost cutting. But like you said, your contract offered huge improvements over what you had. Hence, my perspective comment.

 

[777forever]

Same thing has happened to the CRJ ever since Skywest started operating their 700s in IAH. Yet we continue to benefit from pur contract despite management's attempt at cost cutting. But like you said, your contract offered huge improvements over what you had. Hence, my perspective comment.

Oh please. Ive seen the ERJ schedules in IAH. Plenty of long legs. Absolutely no comparision to the ATL CRJ

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[Clutch]

It always comes back to you and your contract, doesn't it, nevets? Give it a rest, man. You sound desperate.

 

[sweptback]

Yet we continue to benefit from pur contract despite management's attempt at cost cutting. But like you said, your contract offered huge improvements over what you had. Hence, my perspective comment.

You obviously weren't around before you guys got your contract. CoEx had a pretty terrible contract prior to that; in fact, I'd take ASA's 1998 contract over your prior one in a heartbeat. Our '98 contract, while lacking in QOL, had decent pay and better workrules than what most regional carriers have now.

ExpressJet had a lot of leverage in their contract negotiations (the fact that they operated all of the CO jet flights for one, and had an insane profit margin for those flights) and was able to knock it out of the park in their negotiations. The realities are different in the regional industry today.

I'm not advocating concessions, in any shape or form, I'm just think that any airline with such a sweetheart deal as what you guys had in the early 2000s could have negotiated as good or better of a contract.

 

[Nevets]

Oh please. Ive seen the ERJ schedules in IAH. Plenty of long legs. Absolutely no comparision to the ATL CRJ

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Actually, many of our long legs are being done with Skywest 700s. So we have seen degradation of productivity but fortunately or unfortunately our contract doesn't allow anything more than 6 leg duty days.

It always comes back to you and your contract, doesn't it, nevets? Give it a rest, man. You sound desperate.

Desperate for what? That doesn't make sense. Anyway, I was just pointing facts. I'm sorry it bothers you enough that you feel the need for personal attacks.

You obviously weren't around before you guys got your contract. CoEx had a pretty terrible contract prior to that; in fact, I'd take ASA's 1998 contract over your prior one in a heartbeat. Our '98 contract, while lacking in QOL, had decent pay and better workrules than what most regional carriers have now.

ExpressJet had a lot of leverage in their contract negotiations (the fact that they operated all of the CO jet flights for one, and had an insane profit margin for those flights) and was able to knock it out of the park in their negotiations. The realities are different in the regional industry today.

I'm not advocating concessions, in any shape or form, I'm just think that any airline with such a sweetheart deal as what you guys had in the early 2000s could have negotiated as good or better of a contract.

No I wasn't but thanks for making my point. It's a matter of perspective. The reality though is that we are in 2012 (8 years after the erj contract was negotiated) and not in 1998, again, making my point exactly.

 

[Leroy Smith]

Actually, many of our long legs are being done with Skywest 700s. So we have seen degradation of productivity but fortunately or unfortunately our contract doesn't allow anything more than 6 leg duty days.

Taking a look at the flow board, it appears that ERJs are, on average, flying considerably longer legs than the CR2s. I assume the pilots are doing the same thing as the aircraft. Even when the ATRs had these kind of scheds, the block times were considerably longer... And when you start to fly 6 leg, 14hr duty days (contractually the most we can be sched for- duty, not legs) worth 6.5 or so with min rest (whatever your contract or the FAA allows) is that something good? Its definitively better than no restriction other than the FAA's laughable limits, but this company, and it seems most others to some degree or other, treat what was designed to be a worst-case scenario as SOP.....

Same thing has happened to the CRJ ever since Skywest started operating their 700s in IAH. Yet we continue to benefit from pur contract despite management's attempt at cost cutting. But like you said, your contract offered huge improvements over what you had. Hence, my perspective comment.

And we continue to benefit from our current contract, despite management's attempts at cost cutting, immensely!! The contract is not the point - the way that the airline industry, regional airline segment, a specific renegotiated CPA, or next months mainline schedule can change the entire paradigm. Nothing to you in particular, but pilots seem to be very myopic - they see the world from their little bubble of cockpit and crew lounge. What is needed is some thinking that goes beyond a good game of checkers while in the middle of 3-dimensional chess.
If you think that your contract is really that boilerplate, outstanding!! I support anything that will keep my ox from getting gored. But my experience (and this applies out in the "real world" but is amplified many times in the alternate reality of airline operations) is that Capital is able to overwhelm Labor like floodwater, by simply moving around and over whatever imovable object is in its way. I hope to be proved wrong by what XJT people are bringing to the fight.

I dont have the answers, only the questions.