AA seeks to cancel labor contracts

[shon7]

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-03/D9TP374O0.htm

wonder how this will turn out.

 

[Data]

That was the whole point, no?

 

[jtf]

Did any other post 9/11 bankruptcies go for the voided contract and if so, were they successful? I'm not asking if they achieved concessions or just got them from the judge, but if any judge allowed a major airline to void the contract.

 

[Flash]

How can they make the argument with 4 bil in the bank?

 

[macdu]

How can they make the argument with 4 bil in the bank?

It's less than that and the pension debt is huge.

 

[Broke in CVG]

Did any other post 9/11 bankruptcies go for the voided contract and if so, were they successful? I'm not asking if they achieved concessions or just got them from the judge, but if any judge allowed a major airline to void the contract.

NO. The first time it was actually tested, instead of a management threat was Comair during DAL's 2005 BK when Judge Hardin REFUSED to negate the Flight Attendance's contract after ALPA caved with a concessionary deal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/27/business/27air.html


Judge Hardin did NOT want to set the precedent of allowing a company to use Bankruptcy as a tool to negate a legally binding labor contract.

 

[wmuflyguy]

NO. The first time it was actually tested, instead of a management threat was Comair during DAL's 2005 BK when Judge Hardin REFUSED to negate the Flight Attendance's contract after ALPA caved with a concessionary deal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/27/business/27air.html


Judge Hardin did NOT want to set the precedent of allowing a company to use Bankruptcy as a tool to negate a legally binding labor contract.

That is not why he did ruled the way he did, he ruled the way he did because of the companies unwillingness to negotiate in good faith.

http://www.weil.com/news/pubdetail.aspx?pub=8056

In case you forgot he did reject our contract in December of 2006

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2006-12-22/business/COMAIR22_1_comair-pilots-bankruptcy

and also ruled we couldn't go on strike if the company imposed its work rules on us.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-160869181.html

It was all rendered moot after numerous "drop dead" dates given by the company and 11th hour negotiating, an agreement was finally reached.


However, a contract was imposed on the NWA FA's in July 2006, during BK. http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/07/31/flightattendants/

The BK judge ruled that the FA's could strike but the company appealed that decision and got an injunction prohibiting work action and eventually a judge ruled a strike would not be allowed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/15/AR2006091501020.html

 

[Iflyamouse]

Did any other post 9/11 bankruptcies go for the voided contract and if so, were they successful? I'm not asking if they achieved concessions or just got them from the judge, but if any judge allowed a major airline to void the contract.

I believe for DAL and UAL the judge did vote to void the contracts. Back in '03, Hawaiian airlines filed BK and the judge upheld their contracts. The story I heard was that Hawaiian filed BK in Hawaii and the judge there seemed to be pro-labor, hence his ruling. AMR filed BK in New York where the sentiment seems to favor management.

Guess we'll find out in a couple of weeks what the AMR judge thinks.

 

[jtf]

I hope the judge tells Horton he can void the contracts right after he voids his own golden parachute and terminates his own pension. That scum will slash and burn and then bail out as soon as they either reemerge from bankruptcy, or merge with another airline.

 

[tomgoodman]

I believe for DAL and UAL the judge did vote to void the contracts.

In the DAL case, the judge never had to make that decision.

Delta, itself, sought permission in 2005 to void a contract with its pilots but never received it because it negotiated a contract before the judge ruled.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012...News&feedType=RSS&feedName=companyNews&rpc=43

 

[Jim]

Back in '03, Hawaiian airlines filed BK and the judge upheld their contracts. The story I heard was that Hawaiian filed BK in Hawaii and the judge there seemed to be pro-labor, hence his ruling.

Nope. The Judge never ruled. The company and union negotiated a new contract the right before he was to rule. The pilots voted it down and a revised TA was than agreed upon and approved by the pilots.

 

[Bringupthebird]

That scum will slash and burn and then bail out as soon as they either reemerge from bankruptcy, or merge with another airline.

With obligations in excess of the capacity to generate revenue, AA can't give itself away to another airline. Oh, wait Doug Parker likes a good fixer-upper. He calls it Habitat for Insanity.

 

[scoreboardII]

I see much faster taxiing in our future.

 

[Beetle007]

All of the post 9-11 pilot contracts were negotiated and not imposed. In other words, the pilot groups caved before the judge had to make that decision.

However, the Northwest flight attendants decided not to agree to a contract and the judge voided their contract and the company imposed a new one. The flight attendants tried to go on strike and the judge said they couldn't. They eventually agreed to a contract and signed on the dotted line.

What has never been tested in court is what happens after workrules and pay are imposed during bankruptcy but the company then exits bankruptcy. This is no man's land and probably would make it difficult for an airline to raise money to exit bankruptcy. So a pilot group could use this to their advantage and not sign on the dotted line until they are satisfied their sacrifices are necessary for the survival of the airline.

 

[8sugarsugar]

What this means is that you will see Eagle flying 737s by 2015, you just wait and see. Then the dominos will fall. RyanAir in Europe already pays their 737-800 FO's about $27,000/year and Doug Parker is drooling.

 

[CaptSeth]

What this means is that you will see Eagle flying 737s by 2015, you just wait and see. Then the dominos will fall. RyanAir in Europe already pays their 737-800 FO's about $27,000/year and Doug Parker is drooling.

And if the profession allows it, we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

 

[n757st]

I was under the impression that RyanAir payed really well?..

 

[Motown]

RyanAir in Europe already pays their 737-800 FO's about $27,000/year ...

A quick search shows they pay their new-hire Captains GBP112.23/hr which converts to $179.70/hr...

http://www.stormmcginley.com/p/h/Home/Job_Details/29/?lang=&rcv_id=249&fromrss=yes

I don't see anything about FOs (and I'm not in the mood to do a half hour of research), but a couple of years ago when I did look into it I recall RyanAir in Europe paying their FOs fairly well, and I recall some other benefits like day trips only-home every night, either morning or afternoon reports for the month but never mixed, etc.

 

[shon7]

American continues to bleed money

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...-in-february/2012/03/30/gIQAZEgMlS_story.html

 

[KingAirKiddo]

American continues to bleed money

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...-in-february/2012/03/30/gIQAZEgMlS_story.html

But cash has increased to $5.41 billion. Admittedly, I am not an MBA (praise Jesus) but it seems to me that the bean counters would have incentive to show huge accounting losses at a time when they are attempting to make the case for voiding labor contracts.