Delta and UAL might be de-certifying ALPA

[SWA Bubba]

Most of the opposition consists of FNWA pilots, and now a large bunch in ATL, all wanting to not be managed into expectations. The total number of guys who have signed a card to force a vote supposedly was at around 4000, and I think they need about half to force a vote to change unions. I really hope ALPA succeeds in getting a better next contract, but the guys I fly with now in DTW are skeptical. Here's to hoping they come through with something everyone can accept.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

Wait...

(this is all I got from OYS's post):

The guy who flys out of DETROIT is giving any SWA guy crap about flying to LBB? That's funny right there....

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

.... And if you're referencing SWAPA and their "success", I'd have to argue that the fuel hedges they enjoyed over the past decade had FAR more to do with their pilots abilities to prosper than their union EVER did.

And I'd argue that you're wrong. Even without fuel hedges (essentially where we're at now), SWA STILL makes a profit every quarter while paying the highest rates to its employees. How do you explain that?

SWAPA actually works with SWA instead of against the company. That's the main difference between SWAPA and ALPA (or whomever). We work more efficiently, knowing that as the company does well, WE do well in return. Our last few contracts (and extensions) were heavily weighted towards profitability raises, and that's when we leapfrogged all the legacies moving downwards. And ALL of those profitability raises were based on operating profits OUTSIDE of any fuel hedge gain or loss. The fuel hedge gains in those days just padded the company's bottom line. Flying profits alone padded the pilots' bottom line. It really is just that simple, regardless of whatever stupid thing OYS says about Q3, culture, Airtran or Lubbock.

Bubba

 

[joepilot29]

As a current and shortly furloughed pilot from Comair I wish nothing but the best to the demise of ALPA!! It would not break my heart one bit to see DL and UAL to break off from ALPA!!!

I would rather see the regionals play the role of regionals and stop flying mainline routes. I do not want to be stuck at a regional flying for crap wages doing the same job the rest of my career!!! ALPA has played a role with the current whipsawing!!! Tired of hearing all the "one level of BS" they are preaching right now.

I cannot wait to see this supposedly wonderful new contract they are negotiating on my behalf!!! From what I am hearing it is pure crap!!!! I pay my dues to ALPA to leave me alone. Total joke!!!

 

[SWA Bubba]

And SWAPA did well for you in your merger? They did terrible. They had to have the "big guns" come in and give a talk because the union couldn't get it done on their own. Then you didn't get a payraise at all, no stock, and then you alienated 1700 new "brothers." GREAT JOB SWAPA. They couldn't negotiate out of a paper bag. I am surprised you aren't begging for ALPA. All you got was 800 Airtran guys put in front of you, with huge stagnation coming up because of the lack of growth. Your new planes will replace old ones. Oh yeah, you might get a HNL flight, whooopie! Nah, you'll still be doing ELP to AUS.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

You know, for a supposed airline pilot, you really DO say the stupidest things. All you do is spout off buzz words and sound bites that contradict themselves. What did we expect SWAPA to get in an acquisition? We bought another airline. We already had the best pay and benefits. What we "got" was a trade: some of their seniority (2.5 years on average) for our pay and contract. Seems smooth enough. You blather on that we got screwed, and then we screwed Airtran. Well, which IS it? If we screwed Airtran, then WE did good. If WE got screwed, than Airtran made out. Pick one, for God's sake.

And as far as negotiating out of a paper bag, OR begging for ALPA, I'd have to suggest that you need a pee test ASAP. What did SWAPA negotiate? How about the strongest scope language ever in airline history, bar none. (I realize you don't know what that means; you should ask somebody else to explain it to you.) Delta's ALPA, on the other hand, hemorrages scope like it's that time of the month. You pay twice our dues, in effect to subsidize ALPA's regionals whose sole purpose of existence is to take your flying from you. Doesn't that seem stupid to you? SWAPA negotiated top tier benefits and raises (profitability-based) that made our pilots the best-compensated in the country, while at the same time, still helping the company make money. Imagine that! Delta's ALPA? Not so much. You're making profits now, but enough to pay you guys what we get? We'll see. If history is any indication, you'll posture and demand unsustainable costs until your company starts losing money again. You know, more money for less work, typical ALPA m.o. That's what happens when unions and companies consistenly pull in opposite directions. Repeat as necessary.

As far as "lack of growth" goes, once again your ignorance is astounding. SWA bought Airtran to help it grow. We've got twice as many planes on order as we're retiring. And any further industry consolidation can only mean more opportunities for us to grow. While it's true that airlines' plans can change from year to year (Surprise! It's true for Delta as well!), so nobody can say with certainty what will happen to either of our airlines, I'd take my chances with Southwest over Delta any day of the week.

Bubba

P.S. By the way--YOU'RE the new guy, still flying the routes no one else wants. So, I'm pretty sure that -I'LL- be flying to HNL before you get off your route from DTW to your mother's basement. :blush:

 

[redflyer65]

You know, for a supposed airline pilot, you really DO say the stupidest things. All you do is spout off buzz words and sound bites that contradict themselves. What did we expect SWAPA to get in an acquisition? We bought another airline. We already had the best pay and benefits. What we "got" was a trade: some of their seniority (2.5 years on average) for our pay and contract. Seems smooth enough. You blather on that we got screwed, and then we screwed Airtran. Well, which IS it? If we screwed Airtran, then WE did good. If WE got screwed, than Airtran made out. Pick one, for God's sake.

So, I'm pretty sure that -I'LL- be flying to HNL before you get off your route from DTW to your mother's basement. :blush:

Post of the day brother. He doesn't know whether he's coming or going.

LBB sucks, oh wait we outsource it to Pinnacle! Must not be good enough for mainline to fly there. Rinse and repeat.

RF

 

[On Your Six]

You know, for a supposed airline pilot, you really DO say the stupidest things. All you do is spout off buzz words and sound bites that contradict themselves. What did we expect SWAPA to get in an acquisition? We bought another airline. We already had the best pay and benefits. What we "got" was a trade: some of their seniority (2.5 years on average) for our pay and contract. Seems smooth enough. You blather on that we got screwed, and then we screwed Airtran. Well, which IS it? If we screwed Airtran, then WE did good. If WE got screwed, than Airtran made out. Pick one, for God's sake.

And as far as negotiating out of a paper bag, OR begging for ALPA, I'd have to suggest that you need a pee test ASAP. What did SWAPA negotiate? How about the strongest scope language ever in airline history, bar none. (I realize you don't know what that means; you should ask somebody else to explain it to you.) Delta's ALPA, on the other hand, hemorrages scope like it's that time of the month. You pay twice our dues, in effect to subsidize ALPA's regionals whose sole purpose of existence is to take your flying from you. Doesn't that seem stupid to you? SWAPA negotiated top tier benefits and raises (profitability-based) that made our pilots the best-compensated in the country, while at the same time, still helping the company make money. Imagine that! Delta's ALPA? Not so much. You're making profits now, but enough to pay you guys what we get? We'll see. If history is any indication, you'll posture and demand unsustainable costs until your company starts losing money again. You know, more money for less work, typical ALPA m.o. That's what happens when unions and companies consistenly pull in opposite directions. Repeat as necessary.

As far as "lack of growth" goes, once again your ignorance is astounding. SWA bought Airtran to help it grow. We've got twice as many planes on order as we're retiring. And any further industry consolidation can only mean more opportunities for us to grow. While it's true that airlines' plans can change from year to year (Surprise! It's true for Delta as well!), so nobody can say with certainty what will happen to either of our airlines, I'd take my chances with Southwest over Delta any day of the week.

Bubba

P.S. By the way--YOU'RE the new guy, still flying the routes no one else wants. So, I'm pretty sure that -I'LL- be flying to HNL before you get off your route from DTW to your mother's basement. :blush:

That's just not correct. It's great you absorbed another airline, but your "union" had a chance to get something more out of it, like a small raise or stock, but instead had to buy into a "locker room talk." Tell me that didn't happen! Had your management just stayed out of it (like all other managements), then everyone else would have expected the fair result, arbitration, something your Process Agreement allowed....

Your airline bought Airtran to grow, but your own CEO has stated that the 717s, (equalling 70 planes maybe?) will all be going back to the lessor starting in 2015. You will be getting some of their 737-800 orders and options, but you are also dumping your 737-300s and 737-500s. That's a lot of planes, and it will take awhile to surpass the 70 717s, and all of the older 737s. Years. Tell me it won't!

There is no doubt that SWAPA did negotiate A LONG TIME AGO a better scope clause than anyone else has. You also used the DL payscales from the C2K contract to benefit yours. They did a great job doing that too. But, when it came to the Airtran negotiations, uh, not so much. It was paralyzed when the Airtan MEC balked at the first offer. (do you always take any first offer? I guess we all should now, incase someone is lerking in the backround that could come talk to us) Then, after the lashing, a second offer was thrown out, which was worse than the first. Not only is that a beat down, but that is a smack down. That is pure mean, and no way to foster unity. TELL ME I AM WRONG. YOU CAN'T. The FNWA Flight Attendants just lost their union, and they could have easily lost out on profit sharing for the year (4 times your profit, btw), but guess what the CEO did? HE ACTUALLY GAVE THEM ALL OF THE PROFIT SHARING, even though he didn't have to. It's called being a good sport, not being cheap. Now your boss is making the Airtran guys pay for their own SWA training by taking away the first, more lucrative offer, just like he made you buy your own type rating.

And you are right, I am the new guy. But, the trips I seem to fly are the ones senior guys call in sick for. I had a great 24 hour Jackson Hole layover last week. A couple trips ago I was on the beach in Cancun. Senior guys tend to call in sick more than junior line holders for some reason. I don't mind that at all. Enjoy Hawaii if you ever do go there. With the amount of retirements we have coming up here, I will also fly there too along side you, but then I will go onto Japan and places farther East. There are years coming up here that have 700-800 pilots leaving each year. How about you guys? I can't wait for the both of us!


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[labbats]

....aaaand another could-have-been-interesting post has spiraled into SWA vs Delta.

Guess what? You both win. Most of us reading this board would love to work at either. Just let it go.

 

[On Your Six]

....aaaand another could-have-been-interesting post has spiraled into SWA vs Delta.

Guess what? You both win. Most of us reading this board would love to work at either. Just let it go.

I'm done with it. Thanks.

Godspeed!

The OYSter

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

And you are right, I am the new guy. But, the trips I seem to fly are the ones senior guys call in sick for. I had a great 24 hour Jackson Hole layover last week. A couple trips ago I was on the beach in Cancun. Senior guys tend to call in sick more than junior line holders for some reason. I don't mind that at all. Enjoy Hawaii if you ever do go there. With the amount of retirements we have coming up here, I will also fly there too along side you, but then I will go onto Japan and places farther East. There are years coming up here that have 700-800 pilots leaving each year. How about you guys? I can't wait for the both of us!


Godspeed!


The OYSter

And this post above is why everyone knows you are General Lee.

Surprised you didn't throw in a jab about us overnighting in LBB.

 

[rjacobs]

ALPA is only as stong as it's airline based membership. It doesn't matter what name is on the union door if you're not willing to fight, bleed, and sweat a little. ALPA's, Dalpa's, NPA's, USAPA's wands are no more magical than the rest.

Exactly. The more people who understand this the better. A union in this industry is just a name, its all about the people on the ground. I think USAPA is a great example: they didnt like ALPA(for whatever multiple reasons) so they voted them out and their own union in, but with the same(or close to the same) people running it and the result has been less than spectacular IMO. People get WAY to wrapped up in the name on the door. IMO whether you have ALPA or an in house union, its all going to run exactly the same because for the most part you will have the same guys volunteering no matter whose name is on the door.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

While I see the DPA supporters every day, I don't think they're as widespread as OYS suggests (but I'm not in DTW either). It seems to me that every time the DPA thing comes up, it's more of a threat against ALPA than anything else. I seriously doubt enough Delta pilots will pull the trigger, simply for the reason that we would then have only ourselves to blame going forward. It's funny how these contracts pass by a huge margin, but then afterward, everyone whines how much it sucks and blames ALPA for it...

Also, last time I checked, 35% signed cards triggers a referendum vote, but as GL/OYS says "I may be wrong".

 

[outerlimits]

Post of the day brother. He doesn't know whether he's coming or going.

LBB sucks, oh wait we outsource it to Pinnacle! Must not be good enough for mainline to fly there. Rinse and repeat.

RF

Wait till we get the MD90s and maybe airbus. Mother Delta tells us it's not to far away.

 

[$$$4nothin]

I'm done with it. Thanks.

Godspeed!

The OYSter

We can all dream and hope, but we know your not done with the bashing. How do you bash the highest paid 737 drivers in the world. It's like argueing with a cop. You can't win.

At the same time. Bashing Delta is just plain dumb also. Look at there world wide fleet and network.

You are all very well off financially (or at least should be). You all get a bunch of time off. So who cares. Go to work, get paid. Go home, get laid, and stop all of your bitching. Get a hobby other than bashing others on FI.

 

[Scoot 11]

Wait till we get the MD90s and maybe airbus. Mother Delta tells us it's not to far away.

While at the same time they're peeing on you and telling you its raining......

 

[outerlimits]

While at the same time they're peeing on you and telling you its raining......

I mst say ALPA is Aesome. Thanks to then we will be getting the MD90 s. ALPA is the best money I have ever spent.


Will have to see if the new United will let my bros fly the Airbus.