Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Kelly: SWA costs too high

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

Flying the Line

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2004
Posts
417
Kelly: Southwest Airlines must respond to compete against leaner, meaner competitors (and he means the bankrupt big boys)

By Terry Maxon/Reporter
[email protected] | Bio
11:54 AM on Mon., Dec. 5, 2011 | Permalink
Southwest Airlines chairman and chief executive officer Gary Kelly offered some surprising observations Monday about his three biggest competitors:

• The old, legacy carriers, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines, don't exist anymore. They've been replaced by better versions with lower costs.

• American Airlines won't survive if it doesn't convert itself as they did.

• Southwest has to find a way to overcome the lower costs of its competitors.

In a letter to employees and in a separate hotline, Kelly said Southwest will have to fight to keep its competitive spot against major competitors who have transformed themselves, like United or Delta, or will transform themselves, as American must do.

In the letter he said:

"American isn't the only airline not to survive without bankruptcy. Let's look back to 1989, the year Southwest became the newest member of the old major airline club, based on annual revenues.
"All the majors from 1989 have gone bankrupt. Pan Am. Eastern. Braniff. Continental. America West. TWA. US Air. United. Delta. Northwest. And now, American. Every single one failed.

"Why? Not because of Customer Service, but because of high costs. Great Customer Service cannot overcome high costs. That is the imperative I wrote about a decade ago: low costs."


On the hotline, he added about American Airlines:

"I am sure they will shrink. I am sure they will be forced to reduce their costs or else they will be shut down and liquidated. It'll be long. It'll be painful for them. Along the way, they lost their way. As the world changed over the last decade, they were simply not able to adjust and especially with their labor contracts."
"In the near term, they'll be very distracted. That may be somewhat good for us. It may be very good for us in some markets.

"But I can assure you, over the longer term, we're going to face a more formidable opponent, just like we now face with United, who is performing the best they have in 20 years, and also Delta, also performing very well and in some ways better than Southwest Airlines."

Southwest has to "get our costs down through increased productivity to compete against these new legacy airlines," Kelly said on the hotline.

"Their costs are much lower than they were. Their labor costs are lower than ours. Actually, they aren't what you would call legacy airlines. They are new. They are different. The old legacy airlines are dead and buried," he said.
 
Yeah, I was gonna say most SWA Captains top what legacy Captains make on 777/747s. Despite SWA's productivity, those kinds of high labor costs are not sustainable long-term. The only reason SWA made a profit was because of their excellent fuel hedges, but even those will be gone. Save this post and mark my words, revisit this in 10 years (or less) from now. SWA pilots will be taking major cuts to "realign" themselves to be more "competitive" with everybody else.

Written 12/5/2011. We'll talk on or before 12/5/2021.
 
Something will give at SW. They can't keep paying their pilots what they do while flying 737's. It was a good run and I wish I was there making that kind of money, but you'll see Kelly ask for concessions. It's coming. United and Delta are giant airlines that are much leaner and meaner than 5 years ago. Everyone is pretty much on a level playing field and it shows. What's on the horizon, who knows. Just wish the best for everyone.
 
Something will give at SW. They can't keep paying their pilots what they do while flying 737's. It was a good run and I wish I was there making that kind of money, but you'll see Kelly ask for concessions. It's coming. United and Delta are giant airlines that are much leaner and meaner than 5 years ago. Everyone is pretty much on a level playing field and it shows. What's on the horizon, who knows. Just wish the best for everyone.

We still cost less than Delta and are more productive. Plus it is easy for a BK airline to become more lean and mean. POOF! All debt gone.
 
Could this be the end of.......:cool:

How many hrs/mo does DAL 777/747 Capt fly?
I bet ours average 80-95hrs/mo.
Can't get much more productive.

I disagree with one thing Gary said. Customer service does make a HUGE difference. If a Capt took a 10%/trip paycut, that $18/trip will make NO difference if the planes are empty because a passenger was treated badly or we lost his bag.

Hopefully we can sustain our wages, but when you're wages are the highest, there's only one way to go. Let's hope the productivity goes up so other things don't go down. This is the only airline I've been at that I have not taken a pay cut.
 
If i were SWA labor, before GK comes asking for a paycut...maybe you should ask him the total cost of the "bags fly free" campaign. Total cost meaning: advertising plus lost revenue. Side note: I would miss the ads because they are very entertaining to watch!

Delta, UAL, and etc are making millions charging for bags. High value customers love it because they no longer have to subsidize the leisure travelers 4 checked bags full of snorkel gear going to Hawaii! If the SWA passengers complain...a new marketing campaign idea. "You are free to ship your bags on FedEx." Any guess what that would cost them?

Although entertaining, I don't see the "bags fly free" program dissuading the legacy carriers to discontinue their a la carte programs. If GK were smart, he would not come after labor in an effort to subsidize his marketing program. He would be better off focusing on revenue management. JMO!
 
If i were SWA labor, before GK comes asking for a paycut...maybe you should ask him the total cost of the "bags fly free" campaign. Total cost meaning: advertising plus lost revenue. Side note: I would miss the ads because they are very entertaining to watch!

Delta, UAL, and etc are making millions charging for bags. High value customers love it because they no longer have to subsidize the leisure travelers 4 checked bags full of snorkel gear going to Hawaii! If the SWA passengers complain...a new marketing campaign idea. "You are free to ship your bags on FedEx." Any guess what that would cost them?

Although entertaining, I don't see the "bags fly free" program dissuading the legacy carriers to discontinue their a la carte programs. If GK were smart, he would not come after labor in an effort to subsidize his marketing program. He would be better off focusing on revenue management. JMO!

We have actually gained over 1-2 % of the market share because of the bags fly free. I don't what the number trade off is though.
 
Could this be the end of.......:cool:

How many hrs/mo does DAL 777/747 Capt fly?
I bet ours average 80-95hrs/mo.
Can't get much more productive.

I disagree with one thing Gary said. Customer service does make a HUGE difference. If a Capt took a 10%/trip paycut, that $18/trip will make NO difference if the planes are empty because a passenger was treated badly or we lost his bag.

Hopefully we can sustain our wages, but when you're wages are the highest, there's only one way to go. Let's hope the productivity goes up so other things don't go down. This is the only airline I've been at that I have not taken a pay cut.

Oh come on! You sound like the lead anchor on NBC Nightly News. The Delta and SWA pilots fly the same amount of hours. Some months the 777 guy flies more, some less (seasonal changes). But overall, when a 777 Captain flies 85 hours, and a SWA Captain flies 85 hours, it's the same. The main difference is that they 777 Captain can get 15 hours in ONE LEG (LAX to SYD), and you guys have to do 15 intra Texas legs to get the same.

The problem with the "productivity" remark is that overall as a group, there are more Delta pilots in training because there are multiple fleets. If a 767 Captain is awarded the 777, he may be out for 6 weeks doing the groundschool and sim, then awaiting IOE. SWA only has to do that once for initial IOE, then upgrade OE. The airlines don't have the same business plan, so you can't really compare them. And there are guys at Delta that only fly a couple different plane types in their career. He is just as "productive" as any SWA pilot, but nobody likes to bring that up.....



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:
We have actually gained over 1-2 % of the market share because of the bags fly free. I don't what the number trade off is though.

We gained $952 million last year. Also, your "Airtran" subsidiary still charges for bags, even though you guys own them. Why don't you guys just stop it all together???


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
If i were SWA labor, before GK comes asking for a paycut...maybe you should ask him the total cost of the "bags fly free" campaign. Total cost meaning: advertising plus lost revenue. Side note: I would miss the ads because they are very entertaining to watch!

Delta, UAL, and etc are making millions charging for bags. High value customers love it because they no longer have to subsidize the leisure travelers 4 checked bags full of snorkel gear going to Hawaii! If the SWA passengers complain...a new marketing campaign idea. "You are free to ship your bags on FedEx." Any guess what that would cost them?

Although entertaining, I don't see the "bags fly free" program dissuading the legacy carriers to discontinue their a la carte programs. If GK were smart, he would not come after labor in an effort to subsidize his marketing program. He would be better off focusing on revenue management. JMO!

It is only a matter of time before SW has to join the ancillary revenue party.

When the legacy retirements hit heavy and hard bringing in a huge contingent of pilots at the bottom of the scale, SWA will really have to adjust or bust.

It's a shame, a real shame and i hope We are all wrong but i dont' think we are.
 
Last edited:
If i were SWA labor, before GK comes asking for a paycut...maybe you should ask him the total cost of the "bags fly free" campaign. Total cost meaning: advertising plus lost revenue. Side note: I would miss the ads because they are very entertaining to watch!

Delta, UAL, and etc are making millions charging for bags. High value customers love it because they no longer have to subsidize the leisure travelers 4 checked bags full of snorkel gear going to Hawaii! If the SWA passengers complain...a new marketing campaign idea. "You are free to ship your bags on FedEx." Any guess what that would cost them?

Although entertaining, I don't see the "bags fly free" program dissuading the legacy carriers to discontinue their a la carte programs. If GK were smart, he would not come after labor in an effort to subsidize his marketing program. He would be better off focusing on revenue management. JMO!

Bags fly free is a misnomer. The passengers all pay, collectively, on SWA. For any city routing, I've always found Spirit to be cheaper, because they take out snacks/drinks/bags out of the base fare. SWA is one of the most expensive airlines for booking today. There were times SWA had fares of 49-69 one way but those are gone.
 
We have actually gained over 1-2 % of the market share because of the bags fly free. I don't what the number trade off is though.

hmmm...you may be right...but i gotta see an independent source to believe it. certainly wouldn't believe it if it came on SWA letterhead! LOL!

hey, I am on your side. Did you not notice that your fearless leader just began a campaign here: Management of Labor Expectations 101. Next step is the paycut to remain competitive with the "new" legacy carriers.
 
Bags fly free is a misnomer. The passengers all pay, collectively, on SWA. For any city routing, I've always found Spirit to be cheaper, because they take out snacks/drinks/bags out of the base fare. SWA is one of the most expensive airlines for booking today. There were times SWA had fares of 49-69 one way but those are gone.

Yup. Rarely is SWA the cheapest on most city parings I've looked at. One of the things (in my opinion) is their "cult-like" following. By only being able to book/view flights at SWA.com, often people don't even see the competitive fares. Of the SWA "die-hards" i know, most of them just go to SWA.com, book the flight, then when they claim how much $ it was "waah I paid $500 to get to Vegas" I ask "did you look at USAir or Delta or UAL" they'll say "no, I just went on SWA.com, they're always the cheapest. plus I don't have to pay for bags" then I'll show them a far on DAL for $210 ($250 with bag fees!). Ah well.

On another note, who didn't see this coming? This industry is so cyclical, you can't have one of the highest paid pilot groups, flying a plane with 1/2-1/3 the capacity of the top end planes at other airlines, with lots of CSR, no bag fees, etc, and expect you'll stay ahead of the competitors.

Look at PHL, seems like USAir gave SWA a good 'ol whoopin there, or are the massive reductions there just coincidence?
 
The consumer only cares about the cheapest ticket possible. There is no brand loyalty.

All airlines are one commodity. Airline pilots have almost no direct customer contact.
 
Just out of curiosity, what does SW offer on their flights? DirectTV or Wifi? Do you guys have loyalty credit cards or frequent flyer accounts? Lieflat seats on transcons? I'm not bashing or flaming, just don't know the answer.
 
The best any one can hope for in this business, is being lucky enough to be with whom ever is the “Hot” carrier for the moment. And riding it out with as much senority, to buttress against the fall.
 
Iow- after two decades of legacies complaining about swa undercutting them- they've now been undercutting us for 10 years-
Instead of throwing stones- we all need to unify and decide as a profession if swa rates should be the norm and get them there- or if usair current rates should be the norm. If another carrier doesn't match us and alleviate the competitive burden- we might have to come down- which is not financially good for any pilot-

None of us operate in a void-
Fix#1- usapa needs to stop the temper tantrum
#2-100: I'll let you guys debate
 
The best any one can hope for in this business, is being lucky enough to be with whom ever is the “Hot” carrier for the moment. And riding it out with as much senority, to buttress against the fall.


Everyone mocks and laughs at United, but I'm beginning to see a money making machine. In a few years, I think United will be the hot place to be. Especially if we get a good contract, it'll be hard to get an interview. With the upcoming movement and retirements, this will be the place to be. SW and Kelly are starting to feel the heat and they're looking around to make it run better and make more money for investors. But eventually, something has to give and that's usually employee wages. Also, SW will change the guard over time and that, unfortunately, will change SW's culture. In 5 or so years, it'll be a different place. Then again...2012 is coming and the Mayan calendar ends....so it's all over anyways.
 
Oh come on! You sound like the lead anchor on NBC Nightly News. The Delta and SWA pilots fly the same amount of hours. Some months the 777 guy flies more, some less (seasonal changes). But overall, when a 777 Captain flies 85 hours, and a SWA Captain flies 85 hours, it's the same. The main difference is that they 777 Captain can get 15 hours in ONE LEG (LAX to SYD), and you guys have to do 15 intra Texas legs to get the same.

The problem with the "productivity" remark is that overall as a group, there are more Delta pilots in training because there are multiple fleets. If a 767 Captain is awarded the 777, he may be out for 6 weeks doing the groundschool and sim, then awaiting IOE. SWA only has to do that once for initial IOE, then upgrade OE. The airlines don't have the same business plan, so you can't really compare them. And there are guys at Delta that only fly a couple different plane types in their career. He is just as "productive" as any SWA pilot, but nobody likes to bring that up.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

GENERAL CHEESE, How many block hours for you this year on the 767?

Would DAL have made money last year w/o charging for bags? Should your airline be in the "CARGO" section?
 
GENERAL CHEESE, How many block hours for you this year on the 767?

Would DAL have made money last year w/o charging for bags? Should your airline be in the "CARGO" section?

GENERAL CHEESE....???? (say what? Oh-kay?)

I consistantly fly 80-85 hours a month. The last couple months have been closer to 80, and in the late Spring and into Summer I am closer to 90. So, I average about 85 a month. Throw in 4 weeks of vacation.

Delta made $952 million in bag fees last year, but ALSO paid down $2 billion in debt (last year alone). This year the first quarter had the Japan Earthquake/Tsunami, but in the second quarter Delta made $300 million profit, but also paid down $700 million in debt in that quarter alone. It's not only bag fees, it other fees, and also premium traffic and shrinking capacity. Many RJs have been parked, and currently a lot of the widebodies are out for mod changes (crew rest facilities, lie flat seats, AVOD, etc). Most of those widebodies will come back by the busy Summer season, adding even more revenue. Add 12 fare hikes that SWA had to go along with, along with fuel surcharges, and you get the picture. Also, Delta's fuel hedging was actually better than SWA's. They made money off of fuel last quarter. So, it's not just about the bag fees, it's about being a revenue generator and flying to places not a lot of other people fly to, and charging a lot. Cargo helps too. The airline that EVERYONE has to watch out for now is United IMO. They got a great partner in CAL route wise, have had a pretty easy time mixing the planes and paint jobs, and have attained SOC. The only thing they lack there now is a joint contract with their pilots, which unfortunatly makes them even more profitable until they finally cave in and pay their pilots a lot more, which they deserve.

As far as Cargo goes, Delta had a 742 cargo operation in NWA at ANC. It was profitable for years, but the planes eventually got too old and mx costly. It would be very hard for anyone to go up against UPS and Fedex. DHL is trying, but their domestic ops has shrunk because of the tough fight against the other two. UPS and Fedex really do set the prices, and they are large enough to squeeze out the competition without really hurting each other. They decide what the rates will be (factoring in a profit), and you have to pay it or ship it via US Mail....


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:
Bags fly free is a misnomer. The passengers all pay, collectively, on SWA. For any city routing, I've always found Spirit to be cheaper, because they take out snacks/drinks/bags out of the base fare. SWA is one of the most expensive airlines for booking today. There were times SWA had fares of 49-69 one way but those are gone.

EXACTLY!
Southwest now has a problem. They are not the cheapest to book on. So they DO rely on marketing and differences to attract customers. It's one reason SWA doesn't list their fares on the booking sites: they're not cheap!

For SWA to keep paying their people well (what they are worth), they will have to increase revenue. I.e. raise fares (can't), or charge for bags (piss people off and lose customers).

The cat's out of the bag. Here we go. This profession is and has been in a spiral.
 
EXACTLY!
Southwest now has a problem. They are not the cheapest to book on. So they DO rely on marketing and differences to attract customers. It's one reason SWA doesn't list their fares on the booking sites: they're not cheap!

For SWA to keep paying their people well (what they are worth), they will have to increase revenue. I.e. raise fares (can't), or charge for bags (piss people off and lose customers).

The cat's out of the bag. Here we go. This profession is and has been in a spiral.

One of those bad mistakes was the stupid commercials that people can't get out of their heads. "The People's Court" commercials were just stooopid, with that fat Captain saying "Oh, Southwest would NEVER do that...." So, that may come back to haunt them if they introduce bag fees. That marketing guy over there should be fired. (oh wait, Southwest would NEVER do that.......)



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom