Emirates training course

[corky]

How is Emirates training course from (if hired) from day 1 to checked to the line?

 

[atpcliff]

pprune.org has the most information on EK.

cliff
SYD

 

[TWINZ@11]

Plan on about 4 months...however, a lot of out sourcing on the Boeing courses and I believe all airbus courses as well so could be longer now. Boeing guys are being sent to London, Singapore, Auckland and I hear Miami and Seattle are coming shortly, basically wherever they can find 777 sim time. A330 is all in Touluse now from what I hear.

 

[Varmint]

How is Emirates training course from (if hired) from day 1 to checked to the line?

Corky,

I absolutely despise Emirates' training course. It is probably one of the worst experiences you will go through. Some people will say that it has gotten loads better over the years, well, its not good enough. List of problems.

1. Course is self-taught. There is a mentality here that being taught by an instructor is being "spoon-fed". I do not buy into that mentality as a lot of students learn better when the ability to ask questions while a course is progressing is afforded rather than just throwing a student in front of a computer system and a large pile of books and telling them to learn it. This is absolute laziness on the part of the instructors and the training department, not the student....the students have their platters full already.

2. EK has developed this sporty grading system that they think is really awesome. Unfortunately, the system allows instructors to grade you down on you not using their "technique" rather than just pass/fail on the use of SOP's specifically listed in the book. These guys will go so far as to read between the lines in the SOP's to convince you that their technique is actually an SOP and if you argue with them you will either be graded down more or marched up to the training managers office for a meeting. While I think MM is a great guy and wants to change things more, his hands are tied by those above his head.

3. EVERY event in training begins with the proverbial dick measuring circle. Tell us about where you came from and what you have flown. God help you if you are an RJ guy. You will immediately have a preconceived stigmata branded on your forehead that says you don't know anything and can't fly. During training, a couple of my friends studied with their flight partners, learned the same material, and did things exactly the same way as him (not in the sim, in the fixed base procedures trainer). Their flight partners (UK Boeing guys) got higher marks than they did probably because of a favorable nationality to the trainer and the Boeing background. Could they have complained. Yes. Would it have made things worse for them....yes. So they kept their mouths shut during the training.

4. If you are from the US, nothing that you learned in the US is right. Our radio procedures are all non-standard (to them) and apparently aircraft fly differently in Australia and the UK than they do in the US because all these guys want to re-train you on the "proper" way to fly an airplane and talk on the radio. Despite the fact that the USA has one of the best safety records and the lowest accident rates in the world, us "yanks" do not have enough book smarts and "airmanship" (a VERY overused term here) to make the engines turn smoothly on an Emirates Aircraft.

With all that said, if you just suck up your pride, nod your head, roll with the punches, and say "oh, I see" a lot, you will get through the training in one piece and be happy out on the line. There are TONS of great guys here that are good to fly with. I am not one to say bad things about EK, but this is the one area that I would love to see them clean house in and change the way things are done. We all have the same goal in mind and that is to be happy and make some money while enjoying our work. AFTER training all those goals are met.

 

[TWINZ@11]

Sorry Corky breezed over your question thought you were asking how long it was..... As far as training goes: Varmits post is pretty much dead nuts on.

 

[corky]

Thanks for the responses. 4 months is better than the 8 months in Japan. What is the washout rate in training?

 

[Green]

Corky,

I absolutely despise Emirates' training course. It is probably one of the worst experiences you will go through. Some people will say that it has gotten loads better over the years, well, its not good enough. List of problems.

1. Course is self-taught. There is a mentality here that being taught by an instructor is being "spoon-fed". I do not buy into that mentality as a lot of students learn better when the ability to ask questions while a course is progressing is afforded rather than just throwing a student in front of a computer system and a large pile of books and telling them to learn it. This is absolute laziness on the part of the instructors and the training department, not the student....the students have their platters full already.

2. EK has developed this sporty grading system that they think is really awesome. Unfortunately, the system allows instructors to grade you down on you not using their "technique" rather than just pass/fail on the use of SOP's specifically listed in the book. These guys will go so far as to read between the lines in the SOP's to convince you that their technique is actually an SOP and if you argue with them you will either be graded down more or marched up to the training managers office for a meeting. While I think MM is a great guy and wants to change things more, his hands are tied by those above his head.

3. EVERY event in training begins with the proverbial dick measuring circle. Tell us about where you came from and what you have flown. God help you if you are an RJ guy. You will immediately have a preconceived stigmata branded on your forehead that says you don't know anything and can't fly. During training, a couple of my friends studied with their flight partners, learned the same material, and did things exactly the same way as him (not in the sim, in the fixed base procedures trainer). Their flight partners (UK Boeing guys) got higher marks than they did probably because of a favorable nationality to the trainer and the Boeing background. Could they have complained. Yes. Would it have made things worse for them....yes. So they kept their mouths shut during the training.

4. If you are from the US, nothing that you learned in the US is right. Our radio procedures are all non-standard (to them) and apparently aircraft fly differently in Australia and the UK than they do in the US because all these guys want to re-train you on the "proper" way to fly an airplane and talk on the radio. Despite the fact that the USA has one of the best safety records and the lowest accident rates in the world, us "yanks" do not have enough book smarts and "airmanship" (a VERY overused term here) to make the engines turn smoothly on an Emirates Aircraft.

With all that said, if you just suck up your pride, nod your head, roll with the punches, and say "oh, I see" a lot, you will get through the training in one piece and be happy out on the line. There are TONS of great guys here that are good to fly with. I am not one to say bad things about EK, but this is the one area that I would love to see them clean house in and change the way things are done. We all have the same goal in mind and that is to be happy and make some money while enjoying our work. AFTER training all those goals are met.

hit the nail on the head...so true! Particularly the anti-RJ bias. But I guess that's not surprising in a country that has to have the biggest, best, and most expensive examples of everything.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I'll never understand this mentality over seas. ME, Asia etc. I mean flying was invented and perfected in America and most of these companies fly American airplanes. What gives?

 

[wmuflyguy]

I'll never understand this mentality over seas. ME, Asia etc. I mean flying was invented and perfected in America and most of these companies fly American airplanes. What gives?

Also, some of them send their pilots over here to get their initial ratings. Emirates and British Airways used to do this in the 90's and early 00's with their cadets.

 

[Varmint]

Thanks for the responses. 4 months is better than the 8 months in Japan. What is the washout rate in training?

Washout rate is very low....just come with thick skin and you will be fine.

 

[Kenny]

I'll never understand this mentality over seas. ME, Asia etc. I mean flying was invented and perfected in America and most of these companies fly American airplanes. What gives?

2 years into flying in Australia, after 12 years in the US, I've come to the conclusion it's because they have sub-concious feeling of inferiority. It's almost as if they (the Australians in particular) have to make operating an aircraft as difficult as possible, just to prove they're better at it.

I've come across some of the most mis-placed arrogance, I've ever witnessed in what is a pretty "cocky" profession, from guys who've never flown outside of Australia. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud to be Australian and my heritage but they do a great job of sucking the fun out of what can be a great job.

I got paid half what I do here, in the US and got far less respect but flying overseas is not all its cracked up to be.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

God help you if you are an RJ guy. You will immediately have a preconceived stigmata branded on your forehead that says you don't know anything and can't fly. During training, a couple of my friends studied with their flight partners, learned the same material, and did things exactly the same way as him (not in the sim, in the fixed base procedures trainer). Their flight partners (UK Boeing guys) got higher marks than they did probably because of a favorable nationality to the trainer and the Boeing background. Could they have complained. Yes. Would it have made things worse for them....yes. So they kept their mouths shut during the training.

Why do they keep hiring them then? from what friends of mine that are captains there (these are not regional guys and a few of them are not from the U.S.) tell me is that the pass rate is pretty good with former regional guys, so if these guys are passing their training and getting certified on the line within the same program that everyone else, one has to wonder what is behind this "branding" is it attitude? resentment because they are perceived to have had it easy in their careers? is it airmanship? and if it is, how come they are passing training? Or is it plain old anti American attitude?
For what I have experienced working abroad (this is not my first venture into the international jobs market) is that most of the people in charge of interviewing and selecting pilots in airlines outside of the U.S. are not even aware of the whole "mainline vs. regional" pilots none sense, so one has to wonder if this stigma wasn't planted into the EK culture by the U.S. pilots themselves.

 

[Gillegan]

I was in the training department at Emirates for 12 years and think that the whole "anti-RJ" thing started when they first started hiring them. They were less experienced than the folks they had been hiring recently and at the same time, Emirates dramatically reduced the amount of training that they were giving new hires. To top it off, the training department was a free-for-all with little or no training given to the new instructors and the standardization dept./function had been eliminated by AAR because it was "too expensive" so many of the complaints by guys who went through then are valid.

That said, there is a greater level of preparation required for training at Emirates that some Americans didn't appreciate. As with any ex-pat job, you kind of wear your nationality on your sleeve so whenever anyone has a difficulty, they are immediately identified by their passport first. These things combined to create a perfect storm that unfortunately has colored a lot of attitudes since. The cockpit culture at Emirates is definitely "British-centric" (not necessarily a bad thing IMHO) and requires some adjustment. As with all things, some adjust better than others.

During the period described, standards of operation declined. The current training management has been trying to raise those standards. A result is that it is easier to raise the bar on your checking than on the actual training delivered. Consequently, there have been increased failures which don't endear the department to the troops. When I left, the department management was aware of this and had been addressing it but it's a hard slog, particularly when the two principles overseeing the flight department (AAR, AS) are so clueless.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

2 years into flying in Australia, after 12 years in the US, I've come to the conclusion it's because they have sub-concious feeling of inferiority. It's almost as if they (the Australians in particular) have to make operating an aircraft as difficult as possible, just to prove they're better at it.

I've come across some of the most mis-placed arrogance, I've ever witnessed in what is a pretty "cocky" profession, from guys who've never flown outside of Australia. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud to be Australian and my heritage but they do a great job of sucking the fun out of what can be a great job.

I got paid half what I do here, in the US and got far less respect but flying overseas is not all its cracked up to be.

I assumed that's exactly why. I'm guessing most manuals out there are some tweeked variation of US regulations and SOP's. Tweeked to make them their own, and now they have to prove to every one that they're their own.

 

[777forever]

This is funny because every 777 guy that has jumpseated on my flights say its the best and easiest flying plane by far that they've ever flown. They must really go out of their way to make a 777 training program difficult. I mean most people's biggest concern is the V1 cut and doesn't the 777 give you rudder automatically?

 

[Varmint]

Why do they keep hiring them then? from what friends of mine that are captains there (these are not regional guys and a few of them are not from the U.S.) tell me is that the pass rate is pretty good with former regional guys, so if these guys are passing their training and getting certified on the line within the same program that everyone else, one has to wonder what is behind this "branding" is it attitude? resentment because they are perceived to have had it easy in their careers? is it airmanship? and if it is, how come they are passing training? Or is it plain old anti American attitude?
For what I have experienced working abroad (this is not my first venture into the international jobs market) is that most of the people in charge of interviewing and selecting pilots in airlines outside of the U.S. are not even aware of the whole "mainline vs. regional" pilots none sense, so one has to wonder if this stigma wasn't planted into the EK culture by the U.S. pilots themselves.

They keep hiring them because of supply/demand and the fact that recruiting does the hiring, not the training department. While I would not go so far to say that it is anti-american attitude, some here believe that is fine to jump from a cessna into a B-737 or A-320 and sometimes a B747 at BA or Lufthansa (and other airlines) with 300-500 hours when it suits their career progression, but for some reason it is not fine for a US guy to jump from an RJ to a B-777 cockpit with 5-15 years of actual line flying experience, pilot in command experience, and thousands of flight hours. They make it purposely more difficult by riding the US guys harder during training and grading them more toughly.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

some here believe that is fine to jump from a cessna into a B-737 or A-320 and sometimes a B747 at BA or Lufthansa (and other airlines) with 300-500 hours when it suits their career progression, but for some reason it is not fine for a US guy to jump from an RJ to a B-777 cockpit with 5-15 years of actual line flying experience, pilot in command experience, and thousands of flight hours.

Funny how the whole perception thing works. I had dinner a few months back with a friend in Singapore (A320 captain with an LCC) and he brought two other guys from his company with him, in the course of the evening the topic of new hires at his company came up and one of his colleagues made the comment as to how pathetic that only RJ guys were applying lately, It stroke me as very odd since an hour earlier he was telling a "there I was on my BAE146" story about his former company, when I asked as to what he found pathetic about it since he was a regional pilot himself when he applied, "well I flew for a regional in Europe, it is not the same thing" he replied.

They make it purposely more difficult by riding the US guys harder during training and grading them more toughly.

But still the pass rate is high, hum? that puzzles me. My hat is off to the training department at EK I guess

 

[Varmint]

Funny how the whole perception thing works. I had dinner a few months back with a friend in Singapore (A320 captain with an LCC) and he brought two other guys from his company with him, in the course of the evening the topic of new hires at his company came up and one of his colleagues made the comment as to how pathetic that only RJ guys were applying lately, It stroke me as very odd since an hour earlier he was telling a "there I was on my BAE146" story about his former company, when I asked as to what he found pathetic about it since he was a regional pilot himself when he applied, "well I flew for a regional in Europe, it is not the same thing" he replied.

But still the pass rate is high, hum? that puzzles me. My hat is off to the training department at EK I guess

The same mentality exists here among some instructors...hence the training issues. I would be interested to hear his justification for the big difference in flying for a regional in Europe vs the US.

EK has good TRE's. Most of them are very very fair and they have a big picture attitude towards things which gives way to the high pass rate after the "training" course.

 

[Freight Dog]

The same mentality exists here among some instructors...hence the training issues. I would be interested to hear his justification for the big difference in flying for a regional in Europe vs the US.

EK has good TRE's. Most of them are very very fair and they have a big picture attitude towards things which gives way to the high pass rate after the "training" course.

My understanding is that European pilots flying regional jets in Europe are the pilots who for whatever reason didn't get accepted into ab-initio or a cadet deal with the national carrier, but are still pursuing a flying career on their own. Unlike in the US, someone flying for a regional in Europe will never fly for "mainline" or their national carrier.

I heard that from a German colleague. Don't know how accurate or applicable it is elsewhere.

 

[Flyer1015]

Unlike in the US, someone flying for a regional in Europe will never fly for "mainline" or their national carrier.

These days, that's like 50% of regional guys. For many, it just ain't worth leaving no more!