Contracts

[c152]

How binding are training contracts? I have to sign one to keep my job. If I leave early I have to pay the full traing costs over a year. The total traing cost are 12k for a year. If I leave in month 3 I would have to pay 9k. Is there a way out of this. Im in a rock and a hard spot. I don't have that type of money, but I have a new job. I have been working at the place that has the training contract for 3 years.

 

[ttflyer]

How binding are training contracts? I have to sign one to keep my job. If I leave early I have to pay the full traing costs over a year. The total traing cost are 12k for a year. If I leave in month 3 I would have to pay 9k. Is there a way out of this. Im in a rock and a hard spot. I don't have that type of money, but I have a new job. I have been working at the place that has the training contract for 3 years.

Who has better lawyers? You or the company? I'm guessing they do. So in the US, anybody can sue anybody for anything. If you sign a training contract, leave the company and fail to pay, they can sue you. You may win if you fight it, but it will cost you lots of money in lawyer fees (and you may loose, which is a lot like loosing twice). If you ignore it, their lawyers may ruin your life - or they may not do anything... It's a gamble. No hard answers, just lots of maybes... Home Depot (not the flight department) does not usually require training contracts, for what it's worth...

 

[ttflyer]

Also, from the sound of it, they want you to sign a training contract for re-current training (i.e. every year) which makes you an indentured servant. If that's the case, I would run far away from this job. Low-life employers like this are the scourge of our industry.

 

[bizjet800]

I think to have real bite it has to be a promissory note. Other contracts can be a headache though.

 

[brokeflyer]

tell them you'll sign the contract for whatever the terms are....at the end of the training contract you get a 100% raise.

see what they say about that

 

[Freedom]

I like the Escrow Account solution

Tell them if they will put a year of your Salary into Escrow, that if for any reason THEY decide to end your employment, they will forfeit it to you.

I mean come on, they want to lock you up for a year. If they expect you to do it, shouldn't they be willing to do the same?

Business slows down and they need to lay off? PAY ME.

Don't like the fact that I actually want to follow an FAR and fire me? PAY ME.

Mr. Big doesn't like the way I looked at him this morning and fire me? PAY ME.

Oh, you want to Fire/Lay Me Off AT WILL? Ok. Then don't expect me to sign a Training Agreement that restricts my freedom to leave no strings attached.

 

[cynic]

How binding are training contracts? I have to sign one to keep my job.....

Not at all based on this. Two scenarios -

1 - Before you take this job I want to let you know there is a training contract. That contract is enforceable and negotiable. You can refuse!

2 - Now that you have moved here and are dependent on this job sign this contract or you are fired. The contract is not negotiable. You are being forced to sign something and I doubt it would hold up in court.

All of that said a training contract says this -
We treated the last few employees so poorly they quit. We're still a-holes and rather than treat employees any better, we've decided to double down on being a-holes and sue people that quit.

 

[stupidpilot]

How binding are training contracts? I have to sign one to keep my job. If I leave early I have to pay the full traing costs over a year. The total traing cost are 12k for a year. If I leave in month 3 I would have to pay 9k. Is there a way out of this. Im in a rock and a hard spot. I don't have that type of money, but I have a new job. I have been working at the place that has the training contract for 3 years.

I'm probably going to be the lone dissenter here but, did you know there was a training contract going in? Did you sign of your own free will? Is the price for training reasonable or is it over inflated? Did the company do anything in breach of the contract you signed or do you just want this other job? Is the other job really worth leaving for? Is it a career job or does it have the potential to be one? Is it a huge step up on the career ladder?

I'm sorry, but if you agreed to it then you should do the right thing and pay unless the company is in breach. On a side note, one place I know of would make their employees sign a training contract in a right to work state, which is illegal and unenforceable. When someone quit, the employer would sue and then delay the case until a certain judge was assigned to it. This particular judge, the employer had contributed heavily to his re-election campaign so he was in his pocket so to speak. Campaign donations are a matter of public record so if your employer does try and sue you might be able to get the judge to recuse himself if this is the case.

FWIW, I think companies that have training contracts are bottom feeder scumbags. But I also think people need to live up to their obligations too. Either way, good luck to you, I hope it all works out.

 

[cynic]

Did you sign of your own free will?

That is the important point. If you signed it as a condition in accepting the job you should honor it and it is enforceable.

If you took the job, sold your house, moved to a new city, started working, bought a car, then some time later your boss says 'sign this or you are fired' then it wasn't negotiable, you had no choice. I would not honor a contract I was forced to sign under duress and I doubt a court would make you.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

How binding are training contracts? I have to sign one to keep my job. If I leave early I have to pay the full traing costs over a year. The total traing cost are 12k for a year. If I leave in month 3 I would have to pay 9k. Is there a way out of this. Im in a rock and a hard spot. I don't have that type of money, but I have a new job. I have been working at the place that has the training contract for 3 years.

Generally, contracts that are signed under duress are unenforceable. Threatening you with termination 3 years into your employment might well be considered "duress," but unless you have 10-20K to take them on in court in the event you leave it might be easier to negotiate a settlement with them.

Contracts for which no consideration (I.E., something of value) is given are also generally unenforceable. Therefore, a company-sponsored type-rating might be considered to have tangible value to you, while a proficiency check (which is of value primarily to the company) might not.

If the job you're presently at is the best you've been offered and the checks are on-time and cashable, I would consider doing the following;

1) Make copies of any and all company memos, documents, etc., which make it evident that signing is mandatory.

2) Sign whatever they put in front of you. Do it in front of as many witnesses as possible, and make several references to the fact that you "don't really understand it, but that [you] want to keep your job." Keep a list of those witnesses, and stay on good terms with them.

3) In the event that you leave the company and they try to recover from you, present all of the above to an experienced labor attorney. He'll know what to do...

Just my $.02

 

[say again]

What about companies that make you sign for recurrent training? I've heard of a few doing this, and to many pilots, unexpectedly.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

What about companies that make you sign for recurrent training? I've heard of a few doing this, and to many pilots, unexpectedly.

Again, that's a technical question. The definitive answer will come not from "some guy on the internet" or even a lawyer, but from a judge. But if I were a betting man, I would think it would come down to who received the primary benefit of you having been through recurrent training. Your old company would probably make the argument that you being current is what made you employable to another company, and therefore had value. Your lawyer, on the other hand, might counter by saying that the certification you received ("Pt 135/121 recurrency check") was applicable only to your previous employers operations, and that it holds no value to you outside that enviornment. I'm sure there's case law on this, but even case law would be subject to some interpretation by the judge.

The bottom line, I suppose, is that you do whatever you have to do to keep your job, try to document what you perceive to be wrongdoing by those you work for, and have a lawyer lined up in the event you need some legal muscle. "Workers rights" have taken some serious hits in this country over the last several years, and I'm not seeing anything that gives me much hope that they're going to rebound soon. Sad as that may be, you still have to deal with the reality of the situation.

 

[BeeFCaKe]

my .02 Recurring training contracts are uneforcable. It's a ********************ty place to be in, and they may come after you. Take your new (and hopefully much BETTER job) and roll with it. good luck.

Other options to try and get out may be:
FMLA
"Losing" your medical or being unable to fly for an extended period(sick).
Leave of Absence

Unless you are jumping ship to fly the same plane for a competing co the training is useless to you and of no value.

 

[jet2work]

I have left a job that had a training contract after 6 months (promised one thing, delivered another). They kept my last paycheck, but never came after me for the training.

I had another employer whom I had worked for, for a year, ask me to sign a promissory note for a new aircraft type that they wanted to send me to. I told them that I was trying to buy a new house, and that I would technically be required to list this as a loan on my mortgage application. I said that if I couldn't buy a house, I would have to look for work somewhere else, but if I went to the expense of buying a house, why would I leave? They sent me to school, and I left anyhow, because of the bad taste that had left with everyone when they sprung a training contract on us after having already been there.

I had another employer try to get me to sign a contract for a 135 recurrent (again, in the form of a "loan"). They sprung this on me after I had given notice at my previous job. I quit the day before going to recurrent, and they got upset. I'm sure that this employer would have tried to come after me (that's why I refused to sign).

If you sign anything, I would put (s.u.d) next to your signature. Then if they take you to court, I would explain to the judge that you were indicating that you signed under duress. Hopefully, your attorney could get the contract negated.

It has been my experience that companies that require a training contract, usually have to because they are crappy places to work. I would never stick around at a lousy job to satisfy a training contract. I would avoid signing a "training loan".

 

[dhc8fo]

Often times it is more expensive for them to pursue you than to take the loss and fill your position. Weigh the likelihood that this company will come after you and decide from there.

Also, how about asking your new company to help with the bill if the old company comes after you. I have worked for a few places that had done something like this for several pilots (or just paid their obligations as part of negotiations).

 

[gret]

It is a tough situation. The problem is that a lot of pilots that came before us took advantage of some very good employers by completing their training and then jumping ship right afterwards. You can find posts on the fractional board where there are still some slimeballs who say they would do it at the drop of a hat.

No easy answer and it will stick with you in case you every need to have references check.

The new employer is receiving the benefit and they should pick up the pro rata expense.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Do you guys even know what signed under duress means? Because signing a contract to do a job that is legal is not "signed under duress." Unless, of course, they held a gun to your head or threatened to kill your daughter.

 

[brokeflyer]

you guys are all idiots.....the reason they can get away with training contracts is because you idiots agree to sign them.

stop doing it and training contracts will go away.

Its the company's obligation to pay to train me so I can use my superior decision making process in their airplane.

 

[FO4life]

That's easy to say untill you are out of work, got a wife and two kids at home. a morgage, two car payments, and all the rest of the bills you have. then signing a paper is not that hard to do. but it will not keep me from finding a new and hopefully better job.

 

[brokeflyer]

That's easy to say untill you are out of work, got a wife and two kids at home. a morgage, two car payments, and all the rest of the bills you have. then signing a paper is not that hard to do. but it will not keep me from finding a new and hopefully better job.

think about what you wrote. then think about what i wrote.