An outsiders view of the ALPA/SWAPA story

[CLCAP]

First, I have no dog in this fight. I have never been part of ALPA or SWAPA or any other airline union for that matter. I guess I could be considered one of those corporate pilots with too much time on his hands.

What I do not understand is the following:

It seems that there is a disagreement between the pilot groups about the fairness of the presented intergration proposal. Both groups have some valid points and I can see where both are coming from. However - in a normal world, where there is a disagreement - the best solution is to allow a nonpartisan person, or group of people to make a fair and balanced resolution. This is why most intergrations go to arbitrations.

The SWA posters that whine about arbitration remind me of my ex wife whining that our counselor does not take her side. If you have a valid argument - why not test it by having an independent person weigh it against the other sides argument? Especially since you seem to have signed a letter saying that you would. Then these people go on to say that they would NOT want to follow an independent persons assesment of the situation because they know better. That to me is like saying:

SWA: I am right, you are wrong.
Airtran: No I am right, you are wrong.
SWA/Airtran: Let's discuss and if we cannot get to a resolution, let's have an independent person decide.

Discussion yields no result - and goes to third person.

SWA: But if he does not decide in our favor - we are going to screw you over.

Is that about right?

 

[Kharma Police]

First, I have no dog in this fight. I have never been part of ALPA or SWAPA or any other airline union for that matter. I guess I could be considered one of those corporate pilots with too much time on his hands.

What I do not understand is the following:

It seems that there is a disagreement between the pilot groups about the fairness of the presented intergration proposal. Both groups have some valid points and I can see where both are coming from. However - in a normal world, where there is a disagreement - the best solution is to allow a nonpartisan person, or group of people to make a fair and balanced resolution. This is why most intergrations go to arbitrations.

The SWA posters that whine about arbitration remind me of my ex wife whining that our counselor does not take her side. If you have a valid argument - why not test it by having an independent person weigh it against the other sides argument? Especially since you seem to have signed a letter saying that you would. Then these people go on to say that they would NOT want to follow an independent persons assesment of the situation because they know better. That to me is like saying:

SWA: I am right, you are wrong.
Airtran: No I am right, you are wrong.
SWA/Airtran: Let's discuss and if we cannot get to a resolution, let's have an independent person decide.

Discussion yields no result - and goes to third person.

SWA: But if he does not decide in our favor - we are going to screw you over.

Is that about right?

Yeah, I'd say you nailed it.

 

[Rough67]

.... Yep.

 

[canyonblue]

The SWA posters that whine about arbitration remind me of my ex wife whining that our counselor does not take her side.

So your ex-wife left you for a Southwest pilot? Yeah, I understand her reasoning, and it appears you were the whiner.

 

[Kharma Police]

So your ex-wife left you for a Southwest pilot? Yeah, I understand her reasoning, and it appears you were the whiner.

That didn't take very long. The guy just stated his outside point a view, why you gotta be a d-bag?

 

[canyonblue]

That didn't take very long. The guy just stated his outside point a view, why you gotta be a d-bag?

His line about: I have never been part of ALPA or SWAPA or any other airline union for that matter.

Kind of like: I've never been to Spain, But I kinda like the music.

 

[CLCAP]

So your ex-wife left you for a Southwest pilot? Yeah, I understand her reasoning, and it appears you were the whiner.

So what exactly in my post do you disagree with? And why the ad hominem?

 

[400ADude]

This is more like it:

SWA: I am right, you are wrong.
Airtran: No I am right, you are wrong.
SWA/Airtran: Let's discuss and if we cannot get to a resolution, let's have an independent person decide.
SWA: Tell you what, your MC agreed to it so let's let our membership decide.

Two weeks later and wasted time.
.
.
..
.
.
.
..
.
.
Airtran: Uh. No. We won't let our members decide.

 

[On Your Six]

I think Canyonblue should be the first witness if this thing goes to arbitration. That guy is a genius, and he will keep everyone entertained for sure. Please people, DO NOT be drinking milk when hearing or reading his testimony, it may come out of your nose! Friggin Genius!


OYS

 

[Kharma Police]

This is more like it:

SWA: I am right, you are wrong.
Airtran: No I am right, you are wrong.
SWA/Airtran: Let's discuss and if we cannot get to a resolution, let's have an independent person decide.
SWA: Tell you what, your MC agreed to it so let's let our membership decide.

Two weeks later and wasted time.
.
.
..
.
.
.
..
.
.
Airtran: Uh. No. We won't let our members decide.

LOL!, so true!

 

[On Your Six]

This is more like it:

SWA: I am right, you are wrong.
Airtran: No I am right, you are wrong.
SWA/Airtran: Let's discuss and if we cannot get to a resolution, let's have an independent person decide.
SWA: Tell you what, your MC agreed to it so let's let our membership decide.

Two weeks later and wasted time.
.

Airtran: Uh. No. We won't let our members decide.

Did the Process Agreement state that the MEC could turn it down? Did SWAPA and GK sign it? If so, then shut it.



OYS

 

[CLCAP]

This is more like it:

SWA: I am right, you are wrong.
Airtran: No I am right, you are wrong.
SWA/Airtran: Let's discuss and if we cannot get to a resolution, let's have an independent person decide.
SWA: Tell you what, your MC agreed to it so let's let our membership decide.

Two weeks later and wasted time.
.
.
..
.
.
.
..
.
.
Airtran: Uh. No. We won't let our members decide.

That's a very valid point! I myself think is was handled very unprofessionaly by ALPA/Airtran. But that is also something that should generate points for SWAPA with the arbitrator - so again - where is the problem in letting an independent person decide?

 

[Bake]

Did the Process Agreement state that the MEC could turn it down? Did SWAPA and GK sign it? If so, then shut it.



OYS

I'm pretty sure we have a tranny on our hands instead of a deltoid.

 

[canyonblue]

So what exactly in my post do you disagree with? And why the ad hominem?

Alright, forget the ad hominem, and I don't agree with your post on any level. It's fictitious, and serves no merit other than to aggravate an already bewildered flock.

 

[On Your Six]

I'm pretty sure we have a tranny on our hands instead of a deltoid.

Really? Because I think you guys are acting like USair East jerks, does that make me an Airtran pilot? Get over yourselves. I am happy where I am though! Thanks for caring. I will continue to post my thoughts on your debacle at will. Lots of popcorn available here in the lounge.



OYS

 

[Bake]

Really? Because I think you guys are acting like USair East jerks, does that make me an Airtran pilot? Get over yourselves. I am happy where I am though! Thanks for caring. I will continue to post my thoughts on your debacle at will. Lots of popcorn available here in the lounge.



OYS

Please do continue, we love you on "our" threads at FI.com. You rock, so you want to meet for popcorn in your lounge? Didn't know I was that interesting. Thanks for the offer but I will stick with the "not so ugly" chick at the bar. Thanks anyway. Nice kankles.

 

[CLCAP]

Alright, forget the ad hominem, and I don't agree with your post on any level. It's fictitious, and serves no merit other than to aggravate an already bewildered flock.

That may be your opinion, but I am really trying to understand why a side in a conflict does not want the conflict to be resolved by a third party. Saying: I am right no matter what anyone else thinks or says - is just not very conductive to conflict resolution.

 

[400ADude]

That's a very valid point! I myself think is was handled very unprofessionaly by ALPA/Airtran. But that is also something that should generate points for SWAPA with the arbitrator - so again - where is the problem in letting an independent person decide?

Nothing..... Arbitration is where it is headed for SWAPA and AAI/ALPA.

As far as SWA is concerned, they can do what they want. What they don't want is a delayed agreement and oh yeah they don't want the 717's. Arbitration will delay the integration for a while.

It was better to get it done and even better to let your membership vote on it. See what happens. I don't have a good vibe on this one.

 

[Sacha]

Really? Because I think you guys are acting like USair East jerks, does that make me an Airtran pilot? Get over yourselves. I am happy where I am though! Thanks for caring. I will continue to post my thoughts on your debacle at will. Lots of popcorn available here in the lounge.



OYS

OYS,

Your in the lounge at midnight? Guess it sucks being on reserve at Airtran doesnt it. Hey, go make some more popcorn and then maybe General Lee your other personality will magically come on the forum......

So how many fictitious pilot personalities do you have? And why aren't any of them women?

Say......your not thinking of..... No....don't do it!!!!!!!

 

[CLCAP]

Nothing that is where it is headed for SWAPA and AAI/ALPA.

As far as SWA is concerned, they can do what they want. What they don't want is a delayed agreement and oh yeah they don't want the 717's. Arbitration will delay the integration for a while.

It was better to get it done and even better to let your membership vote on it. See what happens. I don't have a good vibe on this one.

I personally couldn't care less. Like I said - I am on the corporate side, and nothing could pry me over to the airline side at this point in time. I was really just trying to understand the SWA pilots here that had the "my way or the highway" attitude.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

CLCAP,
If the "non-partisan" party (arbitrator) understood the nuances of becoming an airline pilot, and what was required of getting hired by one company over another, I might be inclined to agree. Absent these insights, an arbitrator cannot make a truly fair and equitable ruling. Precedent shows this to be true. Reference Alaska/Jet America, FedEx/Flying Tigers... etc (read guaranteed financial windfall). An arbitrators definition of career expectation does not match that of any airline pilot, other than the one of the pilot being acquired with little to lose and everything to gain. In the hypothetical acquisition of VirginA by AAI, the proverbial shoe would undoubtedly be on the other foot. Being a corporate guy, your misunderstanding is understandable. I hope this explanation helps.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

What they don't want is a delayed agreement and oh yeah they don't want the 717's. Arbitration will delay the integration for a while.

Arbitration award should be out by February at the latest, as per Process Agreement, before SOC date. Pilots group cannot integrate before SOC, so how is Arbitration delaying anything?

SL9 states that integration will take 30 months unless otherwise mutually agreed by SWA and SWAPA (i.e. extended). So you propose 30 month integration, but say that 6 month arbitration will delay things? Which is it?

Gary Kelly got involved with negotiations to expedite the process, and now says he thinks we need to slow things down... good way to expedite things by slowing them down. Which is it?

I'll tell you. MEC vote became a failed attempt for SWAPA to swing the vote of individual pilots via scare tactics.

Don't be saving those 1742 FedEx "fear" packages, you not gonna need them.

 

[400ADude]

I personally couldn't care less. Like I said - I am on the corporate side, and nothing could pry me over to the airline side at this point in time. I was really just trying to understand the SWA pilots here that had the "my way or the highway" attitude.

It's up to Southwest Airlines not SWAPA so whatever "the my way or the highway" guys are saying is irrelevant.

Who cares anyway it is going to arbitration.

 

[400ADude]

Arbitration award should be out by February at the latest, as per Process Agreement, before SOC date. Pilots group cannot integrate before SOC, so how is Arbitration delaying anything?

SL9 states that integration will take 30 months unless otherwise mutually agreed by SWA and SWAPA (i.e. extended). So you propose 30 month integration, but say that 6 month arbitration will delay things? Which is it?

Gary Kelly got involved with negotiations to expedite the process, and now says he thinks we need to slow things down... good way to expedite things by slowing them down. Which is it?

I'll tell you. MEC vote became a failed attempt for SWAPA to swing the vote of individual pilots via scare tactics.

Don't be saving those 1742 FedEx "fear" packages, you not gonna need them.

Good for you!

 

[CLCAP]

CLCAP,
If the "non-partisan" party (arbitrator) understood the nuances of becoming an airline pilot, and what was required of getting hired by one company over another, I might be inclined to agree. Absent these insights, an arbitrator cannot make a truly fair and equitable ruling. Precedent shows this to be true. Reference Alaska/Jet America, FedEx/Flying Tigers... etc (read guaranteed financial windfall). An arbitrators definition of career expectation does not match that of any airline pilot, other than the one of the pilot being acquired with little to lose and everything to gain. In the hypothetical acquisition of VirginA by AAI, the proverbial shoe would undoubtedly be on the other foot. Being a corporate guy, your misunderstanding is understandable. I hope this explanation helps.

Thank you for a well thought out response - however - SWAPA should have considered all that prior to agreeing to binding arbitration.

How about this one:

Take all the ex Airtran guys that have been hired with SWA. Take all the years that they have collectively worked with Airtran and divide it by the number of ex Airtran pilots. Then adjust every Airtran pilots DOH by that amount. That would be a market based approach to value of seniority given up by pilots to join SWA.

 

[waveflyer]

Thank you for a well thought out response - however - SWAPA should have considered all that prior to agreeing to binding arbitration.

How about this one:

Take all the ex Airtran guys that have been hired with SWA. Take all the years that they have collectively worked with Airtran and divide it by the number of ex Airtran pilots. Then adjust every Airtran pilots DOH by that amount. That would be a market based approach to value of seniority given up by pilots to join SWA.

What about all the Swapa pilots who turned down Air Tran? Or never applied bc they had higher aspirations?

 

[scoreboardII]

Is that about right?

No, it's not.

You're describing a situation where two poeple who have previously lived fine together, all of a sudden realize they have differences.



This is a situation where someone unknown is being brought into their house, a guest if you will, and having the guest dictate the terms of the arrangement.

 

[CLCAP]

What about all the Swapa pilots who turned down Air Tran? Or never applied bc they had higher aspirations?

What about them? How can you quantify something that didn't happen? What I proposed would literally show how much seniority an average pilot would be willing to give up at Airtran in order to get hired with SWA - which is what this discussion is about.

 

[CLCAP]

No, it's not.

You're describing a situation where two poeple who have previously lived fine together, all of a sudden realize they have differences.

Point taken.

This is a situation where someone unknown is being brought into their house, a guest if you will, and having the guest dictate the terms of the arrangement.

That is not an accurate description of the situation. Airtran was acquired, not invited. It was also acquired by SWA, not SWAPA. The company includes gates, airplanes, employees, fuel contracts, loans etc - which ones are the guests? What you are describing sounds like a takeover of a company that just filed chapter 7.

 

[On Your Six]

OYS,

Your in the lounge at midnight? Guess it sucks being on reserve at Airtran doesnt it. Hey, go make some more popcorn and then maybe General Lee your other personality will magically come on the forum......

So how many fictitious pilot personalities do you have? And why aren't any of them women?

Say......your not thinking of..... No....don't do it!!!!!!!

Sasha,

I know you are trying to dream about me as a woman, but unfortunately it doesn't work. Good divert though from what really is happening, you guys getting knocked off your feet by the Airtran guys. Wow, even you may lose some numbers, which is well deserved. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I have thousands of posts, and Lee has more than 15,000. Even though you may think that is sad, or your "Airtran buddies" may too, I have been on this board for years, since my furlough and during my corporate gig. You can probably look up old posts in the archives. Lee has been on this board even longer. So, since you are a newbie and oblivious to number of posts per member, I'll let it pass, and just accept that you are an ignorant, scared corndog who is could get smacked soon in arbitration. Don't worry, I'll be watching, rooting for your downfall! Great culture, btw.


OYS