CVR for busting pilots?

[rajflyboy]

1. Can or could a CVR be used to get a pilot in trouble in the United States of America?

2. Can either the FAA or a company ever use a CVR for this purpose?

3. Would the pilot win the court case if this were to happen?

 

[Godfather]

1. NO...legally speaking the CVR/FDR can only be used for purposes of gathering data to examine and investigate causes of an accident or a failure of a particular item on the aircraft. This data is to be distributed only to the manufacturers, FAA, NTSB and company involved for analysis purposes.
However, if the NTSB or Feds fault the crew for "Pilot Error", after they conclude their investigation and you are still living to tell about it after an accident, you could get sued by the the surviving parties and their attorneys will do everything they can to obtain the CVR/FDR data to use it against you in court. Again, they can't use the actual data but they can cite the official Fed and NTSB report they used the data to help make their conclusion.

If you are involved in an altitude bust, clearance or separation deviation or in something where you walk away from the plane and no one got hurt or the plane was not damaged, then NO, CVR/FDR data can't be used, but the FAA will use their own ATC tapes, Radar data and FAA personnel testimony in the enforcement action and that is legal.

2. NO, not for any enforcement action. If they do, they broke the law.

3. Only if find the best attorney available that knows aviation law.

 

[rajflyboy]

Thanks for the post!

Good thoughts!

 

[CE750Driver]

1. NO...legally speaking the CVR/FDR can only be used for purposes of gathering data to examine and investigate causes of an accident or a failure of a particular item on the aircraft. This data is to be distributed only to the manufacturers, FAA, NTSB and company involved for analysis purposes.
However, if the NTSB or Feds fault the crew for "Pilot Error", after they conclude their investigation and you are still living to tell about it after an accident, you could get sued by the the surviving parties and their attorneys will do everything they can to obtain the CVR/FDR data to use it against you in court. Again, they can't use the actual data but they can cite the official Fed and NTSB report they used the data to help make their conclusion.

If you are involved in an altitude bust, clearance or separation deviation or in something where you walk away from the plane and no one got hurt or the plane was not damaged, then NO, CVR/FDR data can't be used, but the FAA will use their own ATC tapes, Radar data and FAA personnel testimony in the enforcement action and that is legal.

2. NO, not for any enforcement action. If they do, they broke the law.

3. Only if find the best attorney available that knows aviation law.

I know first hand of instances where Godfathers advice is not true. Take it with a grain of salt. The FAA cannot punish you for what is on it, but companys can, and probably will. No jury would ever go against them in court if it came to a trial.

 

[glasspilot]

If you work for an outfit that pulls CVRs in order to bust pilots then it would be in your best interest to get fired.

 

[CE750Driver]

If you work for an outfit that pulls CVRs in order to bust pilots then it would be in your best interest to get fired.

Not pulling CVRs in order to bust pilots, but when an incident happens and it is pulled by the Feds. Companies will use whats on there to punish you, and no court in the world will convict them if you are being stupid.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

1. Can or could a CVR be used to get a pilot in trouble in the United States of America?

2. Can either the FAA or a company ever use a CVR for this purpose?

3. Would the pilot win the court case if this were to happen?

Ok, what did you do!?

 

[GogglesPisano]

There is no law/reg that prohibits a company from pulling, listening to and using data from recording devices installed on their equipment.

The only thing that stands in the way of using this against a crewmember is a collective bargaining agreement.

 

[rajflyboy]

So

you think a court would side with a company doing that?

thats is questionable right there

 

[GogglesPisano]

So

you think a court would side with a company doing that?

thats is questionable right there

Why would a court get involved? The pilots could sue for wrongful termination, but on what grounds?

 

[rajflyboy]

Why would a court get involved? The pilots could sue for wrongful termination, but on what grounds?

CVR was not put on a airplane for disciplinary reasons. It was put there for safety reasons.

unless its something outrageous like the Pinnacle deal I dont think the jury would go against the employee

 

[GogglesPisano]

CVR was not put on a airplane for disciplinary reasons. It was put there for safety reasons.

unless its something outrageous like the Pinnacle deal I dont think the jury would go against the employee

We're not necessarily talking about juries. We're not necessarily talking about litigation. We're not necessarily talking about an accident/incident. We could be talking about two pilots disparaging their CEO, or one admitting he stole company property. I'm talking about company discipline.

Q: "Can or could a CVR be used to get a pilot in trouble in the United States of America?" Poorly worded. If by "in trouble" you include disciplinary action by the company, then -- why wouldn't it be used? This has nothing to do with the FAA.

As in all things, assume the worst.

 

[brokeflyer]

just assume that after your next landing the cvr will be pulled. that is why you ******************** talk the CEO at the bar 3 blocks from the crew hotel.

 

[CE750Driver]

CVR was not put on a airplane for disciplinary reasons. It was put there for safety reasons.

unless its something outrageous like the Pinnacle deal I dont think the jury would go against the employee

You are making the illogical leap here that the company cannot use the CVR to punish. The FARs do not say that. They say the FAA cannot use it for enforcement action. It would not even end up in court. It is within a companies right to use the info on there as they see fit. It HAS happened and will continue to happen. Case closed.

 

[OPECJet]

Had my CVR pulled at NetJets. No big deal.

 

[BentOver]

Even the most minor of incidents..Say, ingesting FOD on taxi in, bird strike...Or maybe nudging another a/c on the ramp, there is a good likelyhood a company "may" pull the tapes.... When they hear anything other than professional conversation expect to be called on it.. Remember the whole FBO camera debacle last year....

Especially when you've got "current management teams" in place that have little regard for employee relations..Or they hire an "employee relations consultant"!!

 

[rajflyboy]

You are making the illogical leap here that the company cannot use the CVR to punish. The FARs do not say that. They say the FAA cannot use it for enforcement action. It would not even end up in court. It is within a companies right to use the info on there as they see fit. It HAS happened and will continue to happen. Case closed.

Yes it would in some instances. Wrongful termination lawsuit comes to mind.

Show some facts of previous use of cvr and employee's being fired?

 

[BentOver]

I doubt there is any precedence....but the fact that it can happen and is perfectly legal. Unfortunatley when CVR usage comes into play it is too late for the crew and passengers........ Comair in LEX comes to mind...The pilots got plastered in the papers because of their non-aviation discussions.....

It's the companies plane. They can monitor any portion they want...Over stress an engine or operate it outside of it's limitations. Something happens, busted. I've seen that play out with other 121 companies. Maintenance can look up prior a/c data and know when and how a plane was being operated.....Those MFD/PFD's can show alot of maintenance info and trends.....(of course not every type of a/c)

If the company can watch you on a FBO ramp they can certainly pull CVR's.....I guess it would be in the CBA how or in which way a CVR can be used?? But that's only at various companies.

 

[CE750Driver]

Yes it would in some instances. Wrongful termination lawsuit comes to mind.

Show some facts of previous use of cvr and employee's being fired?

I know of a couple instances, that ended up in suspensions and retraining.
If it is on the CVR, with the pilot doing something stupid, wrongful termination would be hard to prove.

That's not the point of this thread anyhow. The Godfather says it is illegal for the company to use that information for discipline. He is wrong, the FAA may not. It is not ILLEGAL for the company to use CVR info. Now, for the decisions they decide to take after hearing them, they are responsible.

If your only defense on a wrongful termination suit is that it is illegal for the company to use that CVR info. You are done.

 

[rajflyboy]

I doubt there is any precedence....but the fact that it can happen and is perfectly legal. Unfortunatley when CVR usage comes into play it is too late for the crew and passengers........ Comair in LEX comes to mind...The pilots got plastered in the papers because of their non-aviation discussions.....

It's the companies plane. They can monitor any portion they want...Over stress an engine or operate it outside of it's limitations. Something happens, busted. I've seen that play out with other 121 companies. Maintenance can look up prior a/c data and know when and how a plane was being operated.....Those MFD/PFD's can show alot of maintenance info and trends.....(of course not every type of a/c)

If the company can watch you on a FBO ramp they can certainly pull CVR's.....I guess it would be in the CBA how or in which way a CVR can be used?? But that's only at various companies.

????????

not if you work for a fractional